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[00:00:00] Chris: [00:00:00] Hello. And welcome back to the one DMC podcast. It's a weekly show where I sit down with my psychotherapist and we interview people, people from all walks of life, sporting stars, psychologists, actors, musicians, generally vibey people. I dunno, lots of people, lots of interesting people. And we've had great guests so far, and we've got lots of really interesting guests to come.
[00:00:26] Today's guest is no different Shane character is what everyone would know him as the government footballer. I know him as a guy who has a very similar mental health history to my own Shane, uh, recently released a book called dark blue, which I had the privilege of reading and discussing with him today.
[00:00:46] I'd recommend you pick up the book, anyone who has experienced depression. Or feels like they might be experiencing depression, um, should read this now it's a tough, tough read. I'm not going to lie. There was a weekend there [00:01:00] where I was extremely emotional reading and it brought back a lot of, um, heavy memories for me.
[00:01:06] And there were moments where I felt like, you know, there was turning points in my own life where I could have gone as far as Shane did. And, you know, I could have been hospitalized just like Shane, but I was probably a little bit more, um, open with the people around me. And Jane was at the time and I told her I people and I had breakdowns in front of the people who needed to see it.
[00:01:30] And thankfully it didn't get as bad as perhaps Shane experienced, but we have a very interesting dialogue back and forth. Shane is a similar age to myself and I think he grew up with, uh, pressures. You know, he perhaps from the outside, it looked like he was living the idyllic life. Extremely talented and you know, the shit hot footballer in the locality grew up in port, mine, Delvin, beautiful part of North Dakota.
[00:01:59] And if you're not familiar with [00:02:00] it, and I think from very, very young, he was the guy, you know, but that doesn't mean much. It doesn't mean much when inside you're experiencing turmoil. You know, it doesn't mean much when you're in front of 82,000 people kicking a football and you feel fine during the game.
[00:02:17] But then as soon as you go home, you're an emotional wreck and you can't understand why he thought it was hormones. Wasn't normal. He was experiencing depression. Now trigger warning for this episode, we do talk about suicidal ideations. Um, Shane did experience them as have I. So if that is something that you're not ready to hear, then I would encourage you to maybe press pause in this one, listen to a different episode, wait for the next episode.
[00:02:45] Um, Bush, you know, fair warning. This is an episode that I think you're going to have to sit down, take the time to listen to there's a lot of banter back and forth, but it's a very serious topic. And Shane's book is a [00:03:00] very serious book. I would say now I won't Barb along. Cause I tend to do these in the last fucking two minutes.
[00:03:06] So this is episode nine of the one DMC podcast with Shane character. Enjoy the episode. Jump out the bed. I got to
[00:03:25] Shane character. Welcome to the one DMT podcast. Um, I always say this, but I just want to thank you, uh, first and foremost for agreeing to come on. Um, and for giving us your time. Um, I know that everyone is going through a difficult period at the moment. Um, but things like this can kind of, I think pull us out of our, our, our stupor.
[00:03:45] Um, and I'm hoping that we're going to have a great chat.
[00:03:48] Shane: [00:03:48] Perfect. Appreciate it. Thanks very much for having me on I'm looking forward to it now.
[00:03:52] Chris: [00:03:52] Listen, I've had a tough weekend. Um, I was reading your book over the weekend and I have to say, [00:04:00] um, you know, I have to be vulnerable with you. Uh, I don't think I've ever cried as much as I cried, uh, reading your book.
[00:04:06] And I was just explaining to the last coming on here that, uh, I think I'm in the same sort of spot. Uh, because I was reading your book, um, you know, they're asking me have, um, you know, has this whole experience for me been positive or negative and overall it's been positive, but it's difficult when you have to look at your Sabbath and others through the prism of, of, you know, mental illness and that there were parts of your book, certainly that, um, they caught very deep.
[00:04:36] You know, they, they reminded me of particular moments of, uh, my life. And, you know, there were particular actions that brought back memories. Specifically. You talk a lot about having your head in your hands, and there were moments where you, you were building up the courage to tell the people and all of that it's Oh, so familiar.
[00:04:54] So I want to say to you, I, you know, I wish, um, I wish I could have seen you in person. [00:05:00] Um, you know, I, I would love to give you a hug to be honest with you. Um, because I feel like you and I are, are. Are kindred spirits in a way, you know, we both went through this young. We both had, you know, always in us for different reasons and we both had responsibility.
[00:05:17] Um, and I really hope that this conversation is more of a back and forth than, than an interview, because I think we can kind of take a lot from each other. Um, but you know, first and foremost, thank you for that. And, you know, I, I really appreciate the depth you went into, um, and the candor with which you, you, you spoke about, um, your experiences.
[00:05:39] Uh, so there's, there's two ways this could go, I could completely focus up and, uh, crying in the middle of it or we can have a great, great chat. So, um, you know, forgive me if I, if I fuck it up, but we always like to start off with, with a simple question. Not always, actually, it's only been the last two recordings, but I want to start off every episode with a question that Knoll [00:06:00] asked me at the start of every session we have together.
[00:06:02] Um, and. Everyone has a default answer to this. You know, mine is usually busy or grant, uh, but how are you at the moment? The shame.
[00:06:12] Shane: [00:06:12] I love that question because it's a question that I always ask people as well. And you always get that age old kind of Irish comeback of Astrum grants. You know, you never get the full picture and I guess answer your question and I'm overwhelmed at the minute being entirely honest and in both good and bad way.
[00:06:31] I think at the minute I've taken on a life, I've had to kind of reevaluate things. If I'm being honest over the last number of months. And, and I said both in a positive and negative light in terms of, I probably took on too much, uh, too early on. And I was, maybe I was maybe kind of affected my own mental health and in the kind of the context of I wanted to help so many others that I wasn't actually looking after myself, if that makes sense and that, you know, I've released a book, I want to help so many.
[00:06:59] But then I kind of [00:07:00] forgot about the person that is me, you know, number one. And so from, from that point of view, um, I'm good in an overall context, but I'm overwhelmed. And, but the beauty of it is that I'm working on and I don't have to hide it anymore. As, uh, as you've read in a book those years have gone through inner turmoil was, was something I never want to do again.
[00:07:21] And I'm so proud that I've been able to kind of stand up now over these last number of months. And as it has been quite overwhelming to say, look, I need to take a step back here. I need to re reevaluate things and, and have a different thought process kind of going forward. So, um, I'm good.
[00:07:35] Chris: [00:07:35] I'm good. Yeah, I'm really glad you answered the question like that.
[00:07:38] Like there's does it feel different to you? Um, and no, no. Persistently asking me this now, because I, you know, today I'm able to say to him that I feel like the, the initial signs of maybe an episode are kind of coming around and you know, this isn't down to you, but you know, your book brought back a lot of, of memories.
[00:07:58] Um, [00:08:00] so I'm able to say like, I, I, the early signs are there. I feel like the, I don't know how it manifests for you, but I get this kind of, um, numbness around my temples. And I got to this kind of tingling in my skin. Um, and I normally, you know, old scripts would have been, you know, shut the fuck up, Chris, get back to where, you know, you're fine.
[00:08:18] You know, don't worry about it. Everyone has bad days get on with it, you know, get to work. You got too much responsibility. Um, but now I'm able to kind of say, no, you need to build in a bit of rest right here. Do you need to be a bit of self care or whatever? Does it feel different for you now when you, when someone asks you to like, Describe your emotions or how you feel inside.
[00:08:38] Do you feel like you've built something up to be able to answer that question? Because I don't think a lot of people can answer that question properly. Yeah.
[00:08:43] Shane: [00:08:43] And I think the thing is when, you know, back say in St. Pat's when I began to learn about this, began to answer the question truthfully, um, as opposed to given the age all are saying, um, I found on the other side, that's stigmatized life that so many people see mental health and is like, Oh [00:09:00] God, I probably shouldn't have asked this question.
[00:09:01] He's actually telling me how he actually is. It's like, well, don't ask the question. If you don't want something on his back, that's the way I think about it. And in a strange way, um, I, I keep on doing it because of once people to feel uncomfortable and then get to that point of feeling comfortable, being uncomfortable, if that makes sense and was totally, you know, from that point of view, even when my friends had asked me the first time I came out of St.
[00:09:25] Pat's and years after that beautiful kind of thing of being able to actually go a lot. So I am. Stressed on I'm up the walls here with work college relationships or whatever it may be. And to have that ease of conversation, that was so, so good. And being exposed to that and St Pat's was the first time that I had seen, I was on the order side.
[00:09:42] I was asked, how are you? And people like, um, I'm not very good at sort of suicide attempts two weeks ago. And I'm kind of like, Oh God, you know, that, that, that was my statement. I always liked that I had . Um, and the honesty of conversation that I have now compared to back then is a, is a big, big [00:10:00] contrast and something I'm trying to kind of keep pushing with it with other people who maybe haven't gone through, gone through similar things, but maybe want to speak out a bit more than they usually deal with it.
[00:10:10] Chris: [00:10:10] Yeah. I think we fear discomfort, Jane, you know, I think that, um, I certainly, um, you know, Have been reticent about the illness in the past with people. I know them. It's one of the big differences between me and you, that I got from the book was you kind of brought people on the journey with you. Yeah, I kind of didn't, you know, um, a lot of the things I say on here first time people hear is so, um, you know, I, I sometimes I fear for people's reaction, um, to what you're going to say, but I think that human beings just don't like to be uncomfortable and we, we kind of seek comfort in the path of least resistance.
[00:10:48] And when you, what, just like you said that you kind of put people off, off kilter a little bit, um, and you're the more you do it, the more common it becomes. So like, if you start when you're a social circle and go like, yeah, I'm feeding the base [00:11:00] low today or whatever, and people start reciprocating and responding to you, then that's your social circle that has the kind of a ripple effect, you know, they can go out and do the same thing.
[00:11:08] Um, and you won't know what effect you've had on people. Um, you know, Until you hear it from a third party or someone that listened to you on a show or whatever. But I, I think I was, uh, it's a great exposition of how do two people who have gone through it. And unfortunately the only people I know who are able to answer this question are people who are close to people who have gone through something like you have gone through or, and people who have gone through it themselves.
[00:11:37] Um, and I know your aspiration is very similar to mine. This, um, people who are aware that we start thinking like this, um, you know, we catch it before it bolts basically. Uh, but we, we like to go back to, um, I think childhood, you know, the whole psycho analytic idea, there's a theology idea of cause and effect.
[00:11:58] And, and, you [00:12:00] know, we don't want to go and put a simple narrative on your childhood that affected your teens that affect the dreidel hood. But, um, no one always likes to tell me that I didn't leave things off a stone. So there are, there are certain characteristics that, um, you and I both have that we got from our parents or our peers or our, what we were involved in.
[00:12:17] Um, so I think, uh, from a very young age, it's fair to say, Shane, that you were a bit of a prodigious talent. Um, you know, it mentioned the book there. That anything you really put your hand to, um, you turn to gold or you won, you know, you were classified as a winner from very early on. Do you remember that feeling or are how people saw you back then?
[00:12:40] Shane: [00:12:40] Yeah. And was it as exactly that point of, I didn't lick it off a stone. I, I was brought into a sport and my family, um, I think from my particular characteristics from a young age, it was very much kind of similar to my dad. And, you know, I'd seen how hard work my dad was. And, and that kind of thing of anything you do, you do speak or best of your ability?
[00:12:59] No [00:13:00] matter be at sports and, you know, relationships work and, you know, school, as it were back in, back in those days. And, and in particular sports that kind of higher graph, that kind of hard grip. My dad was born in the inner city, um, struggling his way through a drop there, to school at 13, just a fan for, for, uh, for his mother.
[00:13:19] And, you know, just to kind of keep things going and very much was amount of. That kind of era of, you know, I'm going to put the bread on the table, I'm going to do everything I can for all my family. And, and I think I was ingrained so early on, as you spoke about that kind of relative talent sports, and that was a manifest and very, very early on.
[00:13:40] And it was so strange, I would say to kind of switch when I think about it like 10, 11, eight, 10, 11, years of age, I should say, you know, I think like that probably a 10 or 11 year old wasn't ingrained in the mind in terms of, you know, envisaging this kind of success. And that was lucky enough to come so early at 17 or 18 in front of [00:14:00] 82 and a half thousand people in, in, in Crow park.
[00:14:02] So it was quite strange, but it was, I very much knew from the outset that I was maybe a bit different. I didn't want to be different. I just wanted to fit in. And I was seen as this, as you say, prestigious talents. And I was happy enough that I was seen as that, but I didn't want everything that came thereafter.
[00:14:19] If that makes sense.
[00:14:20] Chris: [00:14:20] Yeah. Do you think you at the time were like, I don't want this like that. There was a specific point in the book. I think you were 12 and you, you represent the building and there's a bit in the book where you say you came back to class and you know, they, they started calling you to Dublin footballer.
[00:14:34] Um, and your identity kind of changed. You became this idea that people latched on to do. Do you remember thinking, like, what the fuck are these people calling me? W football, did you wear it well? Or were you conscious at the time that like I'm changing?
[00:14:47] Shane: [00:14:47] I didn't wear it. Well, if I'm being entirely honest, I didn't wear it.
[00:14:50] Well, I, at the start, I found it a bit strange that people were introduced me to other people or just, you know, and we'll come out with me and say, Shane, the Dublin [00:15:00] footballer. And although I was so wet behind the years back then, I didn't realize that I just wanted to be known as Shane the person, but I certainly didn't want to be seen as Shane the dumb football.
[00:15:10] Yes. I was proud of what I was achieving from a very early age. And, and I won't shy away from that fact. It was, it was nice knowing that. I was liked amongst my peers, everyone kind of craves that kind of popularity. And I was lucky to have that, but at the same token, Dan, I just want it to be left to my own devices.
[00:15:26] And when I was out in that pitch work and hired, and I wanted that as one life and then my outside life, I just want it to be known as just, just one of the lats. Um, and that just wasn't the case. Not through no fault of anyone's it was just because of course, people are so proud of me, I guess it's culture, isn't
[00:15:42] Chris: [00:15:42] it?
[00:15:42] Um, you know, people, people like, you know, idolatry is important in society for social dynamics. People like to have someone to look up to, you know, uh, there've been studies and where they put kids together and ask them to play. And even children at a very, very young age developing [00:16:00] seem to, um, they look at a particular person as like the alpha or whatever in the group.
[00:16:07] We can't really help it. Um, it just seems to happen. And I remember growing up and there were kids in our town I'm from West cork, a town called Bondon. That were, you know, just shit hot, you know, everything they fucking did was they were classes, you know, and they were the best herders and atone or the best footballers or the best rugby players.
[00:16:28] And when you're young, right, you're 12 or you're a young teenager or right away, to be honest till adulthood. Um, there are a couple of things you want to be good at that are going to get you good social standing, right? You want to either be good looking, you know, I'm not afraid to say Shane, you're good looking at it.
[00:16:46] Right. You want to be good at sport. You were good at sport. You were paying for Dublin from, from the time you were 12 or you want to be good with women. And I am sure. Um, you know, you're probably not going to admit this, but there are plenty of women because of the things you're good at and because of your looks, right?
[00:17:00] [00:17:00] So, uh, from a large perspective, at the very least. Um, you know, you were kind of the Dawn from early on. I can only assume I wasn't here. I didn't grow up in, in, in Dublin, but I knew in my town that, uh, you know, the lads who were good at sport very early on the lads who were playing, you know, Interpros for monster and, and, you know, uh, I had a friend who played for Ireland hockey and, you know, I was never really naturally, sorry, I don't believe in natural talent, but I was never someone who applied myself to sport early on.
[00:17:30] So I'd look at these people as, um, better than me, you know, and, you know, uh, it's interesting to hear you say that you didn't really want the kind of title of, uh, he's the dopamine footballer. He's better than us. Um, it's very interesting to hear you say that actually there's something that. I think we both have in common.
[00:17:50] Um, I didn't know this, it wasn't in the book, but your dad leaving school when he, uh, when he was 13, my, my dad did the same thing when he was 13 or 14. Um, and that idea of anything you [00:18:00] do can do with theater best ability yeah. Is a mantra. Right. And I, uh, you say it, it rolls off your tongue as if like it's at the forefront of your mind for every second of every day.
[00:18:09] And I have be a leader, not a follower. This is what my father used to. Um, I was standing old and I have specific memories of car journeys and times when we would discuss, um, you know, how to act with your peers or how to act in certain situations. And it was to be a leader to demonstrate, uh, leadership capabilities, or, you know, when, when your friends are in trouble, you aren't, you need to be the one that, um, uh, you know, can stand up.
[00:18:34] You know, you need to be the person that, uh, if people are making fun of other kids, you need to say to them, You know, you don't need to do that. You know, you need to be the person that, um, if you're different or if someone's different, do you need to kind of shine a light on that in a good way. Um, do you think like that mantra, um, is still with you now, do you think that was something that got kind of pervaded, uh, your, your life?
[00:18:57] Was it an aspect of everything you did?
[00:19:00] [00:19:00] Shane: [00:19:00] I think from early on it did, um, you know, you spoke about it, that kind of social dynamic of, I was maybe pigeonholed into from a very early age, this alpha male is, uh, as you say, this kind of all dominant leader of the group. And because I didn't have my faculties about me of thinking, okay, none a Holden, what, who do I want to be?
[00:19:18] You know, I didn't have any, that's why I just found myself, okay, I'm in this category here. This is who I am, and this is who I need to act. Um, around this kind of group. And I guess even from that point of view, you spoke about kind of, you know, I had things going for me in terms of sport and kind of worlds and, you know, popular popularity amongst friends and that kind of, uh, female attention that I didn't know what it was there, or I just didn't seek it on.
[00:19:43] And if I'm being honest, I was probably, that was one thing that I had got at me for, because I had no interest. I was like that to play football that plays sports, nah, not interested, you know, and I think as well, like from an early age as, as the kind of, you know, any young kid do is [00:20:00] as experimental, inner ways.
[00:20:01] In terms of drink and smoke and all that other stuff, I just wasn't interested enough. And, you know, after kind of summer exams, people getting their hands on all sorts of IDs and whatever else, they can get any amount of drink. Now they can always open the Geico, but my dad and I was just different than, I guess, people at seen that as I was possibly a base, I was called weird.
[00:20:25] So it was called a freak out from people who were probably more jealous of what I was trying to achieve from an earlier early age. And, and that was the, that was the reality of it. It wasn't, it was maybe soft bullying because I didn't predict it particularly care, but it was what they were doing. I seen as like, you're wasting your life there.
[00:20:41] And that's where the maturity in my age of 13, 14, 15, I already had that kind of, you know, Paul process in my head, thus, these people aren't going anywhere. They're not going to make anything of themselves. That's I don't care if they want to don't ball their issues on me because I want to go out and achieve something different to us.
[00:20:58] Society probably [00:21:00] seems normal. What young kids should be doing. And, and it's interesting there, you touched upon even your dad and everything like that, those conversations in the car, and would be kind of very, very kind of clued into like, even as phone calls and all that when he's speaking to people and just how we kind of approach situations, it was very much that in terms of, okay, what's the process here?
[00:21:19] How do we, you get to step in terms of getting to excellence? How do we get to a hundred percent and all that? Isn't like, there was no stone left unturned. And I think, Hmm, that was ingrained in me inadvertently. It was utter direct conversations that he had with me, or has indirect conversations that I was listening to.
[00:21:35] And that was constantly kind of manifesting in my kind of. I would say South in terms of that striving for excellence. And that kind of wants to be the best that I can be every single day. Um, and the lads of, you know, it's like me say, when he's take a day off where you slow down, like, I just didn't want any of us.
[00:21:53] I was just like last, I, I have no interest in doing whatever you're doing, you know, and that's where I was kind of finding myself as well and [00:22:00] probably in a vert, me that kind of pressurized environment that we feel like we need to be someone right. Is becoming more and more comfortable as I was getting older and being who I, who I am and who I wanted to be, I guess.
[00:22:10] Um, even though people had seen as, as quote unquote, freakier are weird.
[00:22:16] Chris: [00:22:16] Yeah. I was called boring. My friends call me father stone. No, I'm from a craggy Island. Yeah. So I, you know, I wasn't, um, applying myself in any particular, I have a very obsessive nature. Um, maybe even obsessive compulsiveness and. I would apply myself to things rigorously, whether that be exams always remember I was getting grinds from a science teacher and, uh, he was kind of, uh, bemused at the fact that my mom told him that I had fallen asleep at my desk, um, the night before.
[00:22:48] Were you late studying? You know, cause I always remember, I don't, I didn't think I was conscious of the time, but because my father was, you know, um, not really around like he was working, uh, you [00:23:00] know, he would work a hundred hour weeks consistently. Um, so it was this idea for me of hard work. You know, this, this, you know, fraud is this idea of the golden seed.
[00:23:10] It's it's, you know, the provenance of, or aware of this kind of sealing idea came from, uh, of hard work and, uh, you know, something I thought was interesting in, in the book was this idea of sacrifice that you learned from a young age, you know, you, you associated. Um, the effort you put in and the sacrifices that you made outside of the sport with your success in the sport, maybe if you had been more carefree and you had like chilled with the lads and, you know, smoked weed behind the fucking shed and school, like everyone else was doing.
[00:23:45] Yeah. Um, yeah, stealing, might've been like a Dublin footballer, but you didn't use associated, you know, the cause, uh, being my hard work and my sacrifice with the effect being, I'm getting medals and trophies here and I make it on the 11 pallet, therefore [00:24:00] it just amplifies as your life went on. And I do. Do you think that at the time when you were, you were a young guy, right?
[00:24:09] Um, you know, you're 14, 15, 16, and even younger. Do you remember thinking I am sacrificing for the, for the greater good here at a goal?
[00:24:19] Shane: [00:24:19] Yeah, I definitely did. And that was attained us, I guess, from a very early age, I knew. What I wanted to do what I wanted to achieve and what I needed to do in terms of the sacrifice of that little thing of like, not smoking weed with a lesbian in the shelters or not going out for drinks at the weekend or not hot.
[00:24:37] Like the little thing of like, not having a Chinese or not having a chocolate bar and all those, you probably, you could say as well, I was probably too regimented to military, like, um, but I loved every minute of it in such a strange way to people. I seen an issue with it from my outside kind of circle.
[00:24:54] And people had seen like, why, why are you doing? Like, how can you enjoy that? I was like, well, I really, [00:25:00] really enjoy this. As in like, I'd want to try to go for a run or go for a kick on my daughter, do a cycle, do a swim, rather than sit around on the beach, drink an endless amount of cans as in that just didn't appeal to me.
[00:25:12] And, and I guess that was difficult at the star for people to kind of realize. And because again, that social dynamic of we need to fit in here. And, uh, and that was the thing of. I was fitting into my life. I was fitting into my circle and it was definitely something does, and I knew I was sacrificing, but for the greater good, because I knew things were commingled and things were going to come, go ahead and continue to be like that.
[00:25:35] So I had no issue in terms of worrying what other people would say or think as I developed 30 years, I guess.
[00:25:41] Chris: [00:25:41] Yeah. There's uh, I always remember growing up. Yeah. I played a little bit of GA, um, on and off until I was maybe 14 and did the golf and, and then people started playing rugby. So I played rugby.
[00:25:53] You play with your friends were playing mostly like, you know, I had no real drive to be at. Excel in any sport. [00:26:00] Um, I wanted to be a rugby player, I guess, but I, you know, I didn't know what it took at the time, that level of sacrifice that you understood from that age. Um, but do you think in, in the GAA, because we discussed this a lot, I did, uh, uh, sports studies and education, physical education degree in, in university college cork.
[00:26:19] And, um, we'd spend a lot of time together, you know, the rugby lives and the J lads and whatever, we'd, we'd jokingly derived each other all the time, you know? Um, and one of the aspects I found fascinating about the GA was this idea of like sacrifices quite ingrained in, in club. Um, you know, uh, the, the, you know, there was two things that.
[00:26:42] JFS love, fucking doing running laps and, um, you know, sacrificing and like we'd make jokes with them about like, you know, you can't do this and you can't get out before a match. And they all had these kind of, um, they all had these superstitions and, you know, the rector low-key, uh, jocks before the game or on the day of the game and this kind of stuff.
[00:26:59] And [00:27:00] Roadrunners don't have that, um, to, to, to a large extent, um, I'm way, way off the Mark there. Or is that right? No, absolutely. Yeah. And just as you're saying
[00:27:07] Shane: [00:27:07] that in terms of the different kinds of sport and worlds, and I would kind of clash and had different kind of opinions on how sacrifice should look like, and I even have a story there a couple of years ago, one of my best mates, um, had, uh, who I played growing up with Gaelic soccer.
[00:27:23] Hurlin absolutely everything I'd went down to Gaelic football route. He went down the soccer route and he had moved over to England and I think it was maybe 16, 17 years of age, and we'd always kept in touch and. He'd come back after I think maybe five or six years, um, spend a bit of time over there. And he had signed for global North and he was living in port moronic.
[00:27:42] He just lives up the way from me. And, um, he was saying, Oh, w go for a drink this weekend. I was like, no, no, I won't be drinking until October. And I think this was maybe January, February. And he was like, Whoa. I was like, yeah, are you serious? He goes, Oh, I talked to the one, the last messenger you was talking to an older guy, Walter open, open [00:28:00] Tyrone as it were.
[00:28:01] And he was the exact same just kind of thing of no, no, no drink. We always try and hire it. Room loads, a lapse, all this kind of stuff for nine, 10 months a year, don't touch a drink. All. He was like that. I know he goes, he goes, how do you diffuse? Doesn't how do you relax? And I'm like, Shane, I'm a professional football or hair.
[00:28:15] I'm we're told to wear, you know, when the time is right. We're told to grab every week or second week or when the time is right, you know, to diffuse, I have a couple of drinks, have a better crack and just get away from that kind of 110% kind of commitment to the cause. And, and he certainly changed my perspective on that.
[00:28:33] And it's interesting you say from the ropey kind of context of a same from the soccer, like rugby of course, amounts of drinking culture, you know, getting a coupon is nearly like frowned upon that, you know how to drink and won't be for a game, you know, and
[00:28:45] Chris: [00:28:45] culturally, I think in the GA, like what I find interesting is the guy I called a guy with Jay lads, I grew up with, um, would be almost ascetic.
[00:28:57] Um, they, they would, they would. Like rid [00:29:00] themselves of all the kind of, um, you know, anything that would be seen as, um, bad for their health or bad for their game, or they would be home almost religious about it for the season. Like when it's going up the championship or tempo, um, like you wouldn't see that as no, but then when the minute they get knocked out a championship or they win or whatever weeks and they were fucking, they go mental, you know, on the drink.
[00:29:25] Yeah. Um, and it was just like, it's funny that like rugby, sometimes they say like you've a drinking team, but a rugby problem, you know, because rugby has always been Toski soda was associated with like, after the game, you have a few jars. Hmm. Um, that doesn't seem to be a thing in the GA. And I, I thought it was interesting that like, you know, sacrifice hard work and all that kinda stuff was talked about so much in your story, but you had, you know, coming from, um, your, your closest loved ones, you had it in your sport, you know, all these feedback loops were going on and he was, as you were growing up, like, I know you say you, you [00:30:00] enjoyed the process of, um, you know, the hard work and whatever, but you know, there's an argument to say you also enjoyed, or you could have also enjoyed the.
[00:30:10] The benefits and the winds that it was giving you, you know, this is how feedback loops worked. If I do something and I realize that, Oh, I won, therefore I'll do it again. And then it just keeps amplifying and amplifying and amplifying and feeling all of a sudden, like you're getting the senior level and, you know, uh, you know, the coach is telling you, you need to work hard and your version of work hired, manifests in a certain way.
[00:30:30] Your version of work hard is I'm going to do this, this, and this and this, this is my like, regime that I've done since I was, you know, nine years old or whatever. Yeah. An overlap could be like completely different. You know, he could be loud who was talking about is, you know, working hard for me is making sure my lucky jocks are washed washed before the game, you know?
[00:30:47] Yeah. Yeah. But I, I think that it's important that we, we understand that, you know, but I don't want to belabor on, on, on, you know, your, your childhood too long. [00:31:00] Um, because I think there there's a lot to be said, uh, from the point where you're maybe 17 onwards. Cause this is where, um, you, you start referring to your, you don't think he knew it was depression at the time, but, um, your early signs of depression, can you, can you take me to perhaps midway through fifth year and, um, how you first started to, uh, let's say perceive are to notice changes in yourself.
[00:31:28] What were the symptoms that were, were, were cropping up.
[00:31:31] Shane: [00:31:31] I guess the symptoms were when I look back and in particular. And I would say the thing that gave me the most joy was of course probably comes as no surprise as football and I was trained to fly six times a week. There were particular matters. And, you know, whether it be like in a way, much going down to boss with the lads, playing against cork or carrier going up to Tony Gordon and all this sort of stuff.
[00:31:51] And at the beginning for me, I thought it was hormonal changes. And I thought it was something that was going on in my body that I was like, okay, I'll try to figure this [00:32:00] out. It was very sporadic, maybe at start. It was maybe once or twice a month. And I didn't take any heat of, um, one I didn't want to. And then 2:00 AM.
[00:32:09] I just thought I'd get over it. And, and then I slowly started to notice in the middle of fifth year and it was becoming more and more apparent that the low was feeling a lot more lower than last low. Um, and it just felt like a bit of a wave that was built and, and build an open build and open. And I was thinking, okay, I'm not going to speak old period because.
[00:32:29] Building that kind of childhood picture at us. I am this pedestal, like figure on the sky. I live in this idyllic life and they can't show any sign of weakness on the alpha male here. I'm the leader. So the last thing in my head was I'm going to speak up. I'm going to say something to someone. And I also want to educate their mental health, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, anything like that.
[00:32:47] It simply wasn't spoken about. And as, as we all know, in terms of society, back then 10 years ago, it's completely different to where we are today. And yet we still have a long way to go today. And, but particularly in the middle of fifth year, [00:33:00] those kinds of things of matches to look forward to couldn't quite attack today.
[00:33:04] I'd get open. I'd be feeling why can't I look forward to like what what's, what is going on on the only time that I felt happy was when I was actually down, out on that pitch and it was masking it, I was like, okay, I'm, I'm fine. I'm fine. And I'd feel it again a couple of weeks later. And then it would be a week.
[00:33:20] And then it'd be day after day after day. And, and it was just a spiral effect like that. I would say
[00:33:26] Chris: [00:33:26] it's the. Sense of joylessness I think, you know, um, that, uh, I don't think people who, uh, have not experienced depression understand how, uh, pessimistic and joyless, I think you can become even early on. I think back in my symptoms, it was that same thing of, I didn't know what the hell was going on.
[00:33:47] You know, I didn't think it was hormonal changes cause I was 19 or 20. I just, I actually had come back from traveling in New Zealand, into, um, the university and I just wanted [00:34:00] to leave. I didn't like it there. And I remember anticipating in, in sixth year, um, going to university like this kind of. I had this like, idea of like California college, you know, and I fucking going and drinking out of red cups in the parties or whatever.
[00:34:14] And then when I got back, it was cold and dreary and I was cold all the fucking time. And, um, you know, we have to get the classes and I kept missing classes cause I was just being lazy. And it just kind of spiraled that way, I guess. Do you remember like actual symptoms, do you do, was there, was it just low mood at that time?
[00:34:33] Or were there other things like, was there things that you stopped doing a lot of time? For me it was, I stopped doing things that were
[00:34:39] Shane: [00:34:39] good for me. Yeah. Just, just a side note there, California water place probably touch upon that later, but my God that just brought back so many happy memories. Say for example, you had to go back to your points.
[00:34:52] I guess that kind of, you would say I did. I think you touched upon it there and you're on it, but that kind of numbness, that lack of emotion that you could attach to [00:35:00] absolutely anything. And that was certainly apparent very early on. And that kind of thing of looking, okay, look, it's going to be so fantastic.
[00:35:08] I'm going to be putting on the Dublin Jersey, something of wanting to do so many times over, and I couldn't feel anything. I was looking at the image. I was playing out these happy moments. I should've been happy moments and it was just met with a numbness. It was just met with such a lack of emotion. And for me, it was quite the opposite.
[00:35:24] Actually. It was me that wanted to keep doing things. I wanted to keep going, wanted to keep, you know, train and every single day, five, six times a week. And that was my only outlet. That was my only way of feeling somewhat happy or feeling somewhat LA and for a couple of hours at least. And so the last thing that I want to do, and I know it's actually quite the opposite and not a common thing with depression.
[00:35:47] Quite often, people are feeling alone. They don't want to go up and attack today, but I knew that was going to be worn signs for people because I'm so busy in my life. If I had started taking myself away from places or things or matches or [00:36:00] trainings. Then the question will be asked. And that was the very, very last thing I wanted to do.
[00:36:03] So finding thing that actually made me double up on my energy and outputs and just make sure I was constantly busy, diminish sports work, you know, social kind of aspects or whatever it may be. I have hot to keep both my parents is so the questions aren't going to be coming from the other side, then,
[00:36:22] Noel: [00:36:22] sorry, it just as bad as both of you are talking it's it's and it's not this isn't about just kind of all let's tell our war stories, but I think a big part of this whole thing that we're wanting that we want to do with podcasts and we having people on is that there's something we'll relate to some in some see someone's situation, you know, and things like that.
[00:36:41] And like, say for my own thing that Jane will know there. So the, maybe the international, this was may not put it. The sentiment is the principal is, is definitely there. Um, I think it was 2007 though. It was, I would have, I played hurling, which is also a GIA sport, sham, Jewish anda Noel. Um, [00:37:00] and I was on a, on a regional team doing really well, really enjoying us 2007 on a rope at this club called Thomas Davis.
[00:37:06] There's, you know, they're all weather pitch, their shine coming off it and just absolutely Bose and Lovin at 30 lads, just, they live in Harlem and that, but then whatever happened to me and the different, my depression, you want to kick it in exactly a year later, coming out. I remember, I always remember walking off the same pitch coming around the back of the car park, getting into the car cause he used the power of the fire side.
[00:37:29] So your, your, your car window didn't get smashed with the ball, went over the net and the tactical part chiropractic and I'm getting to the car and just, it's literally the weight. So the weight of the GAA pitches about 60 meters there, thereabouts, and it took me the width of a pitch from common to absolute ecstatic excitement, wasn't to depression until under confusion that it was just, Oh, what what's going on?
[00:37:53] Where, where, ah, what's, what's this kind of confusion on that. And [00:38:00] I suppose that that's, it brings those things back up for me, but it's obviously being through what I've been through and then, uh, you know, learning what I've learned since, since started. It's fantastic, but it's, I suppose it's to come back to you in that moment and what was, again, I suppose I have to, just to touch on it again, but what was it?
[00:38:22] Did you feel a panic? Did you feel an overwhelm? Was it does it, for me, it was like, just this darkness just absolutely came back over and it just totally took the soul of any ounce of enjoyment out of it. It was, what was that like for you? And those, did you have those particular moments where it was like a switch almost?
[00:38:38] Shane: [00:38:38] Yeah. And on a completely unrelated in terms of the. Again, outside looking in, you possibly may well played an absolute, fantastic match and people thinking that that's great, what's going on in that player's life over there. Like there's nothing wrong with them, et cetera, et cetera. And then 60 meters later, literally 60 meters later.
[00:38:56] Yeah. Your world is turned upside down on your emotions [00:39:00] are, you know, completely changed. Um, and that's how quickly it can happen. And that happened to me so many times where I was nearly want them to go, okay, I need to go back out on the page. I need to go back out for a run. And I don't that sometimes I even remember thinking rights that completely on the way back from, uh, we were trying to open them in Belgrade from it's about maybe five minutes from my house and come home after a tough session.
[00:39:22] And, and I think it was between the car journey from Belgrave and back to home, I just felt like a complete LA, it was just like. I'm back in my own head on, back into the person that I don't want to be because I was living two lives. I was that happy person out in the page. Everything going well for me.
[00:39:38] And then the other side, this depressive figure that didn't want any part of the world comb the come the end of two years of what I went through. And I know just took my bike out. When I went out, I think it was two, two and a half hours on the bike. And then your cycles just kept on cycling as hard as I called, just to try and get those endorphins going again on my body.
[00:39:55] So I didn't think what I was thinking back in the car and from coming home from train. [00:40:00] And, um, it's so debilitating because that's even from a sport and standpoint, that's absolutely not the thing you should be doing after coming off a training session to be willing to then go onto a bike for two and a half hours.
[00:40:12] And it was then jeopardizing as well. I had actually probably inadvertently kind of added more Gail for myself cause I came back and I was like, I'm not going to, that's going to take me an extra couple of days to recover from that. As in like, that was such a tough training session alone that I've inadvertently may have jeopardized.
[00:40:28] My performance level on the pitch for this weekend because of stupidly went out and you know, that spiral of negative emotion yet again, that you just kind of keep control of.
[00:40:38] Chris: [00:40:38] Uh, guilt is awful like that. It's, you know, in Buddhism they have this idea of, of the, um, two darts. You know, the first art is your perception of situation or your anxiety.
[00:40:49] And then, you know, the secondary to me, never comments, the actual event event itself. And then it's so tiring. But when I hear you talk like that, and I'm trying to imagine, um, [00:41:00] what your peers were thinking like your Shane character, you know, Dublin footballer and after a match, he goes for fucking two hour cycle.
[00:41:06] He's so disciplined. The man is so disciplined, you know? Um, and I, I thought it was kind of poignant in the book when you started talking about like your absenteeism. So you you'd tell your buddies, uh, that I can't make it out tonight. Um, you know, Just a half a match at the weekend. You know, you need to refuse, just went for a two hour cycle after the match.
[00:41:30] So I need to rest the legs or whatever. Um, and I think like, it was very easy for you, um, to, to tell everyone that you couldn't do this, or you couldn't do that, or you wouldn't be here and you wouldn't be there because they all taught you or just being a disciplined warrior. You know, the guy preparing his craft for, for the game day on Saturday or whatever.
[00:41:53] And everyone, you know, it doesn't matter who you are, whether it was your parents are, you know, uh, Jack off the street, they looked at [00:42:00] you as someone who was like disciplined. He was, I can just,
[00:42:02] I'm
[00:42:02] Chris: [00:42:02] thinking back to like how all you looked at people. Um, and I would have thought like, God, that's our idea of like peak performance only that these people who are like, they're willing to go the extra mile.
[00:42:13] Am I, am I right there? Like, did people just continually call you discipline in, in your, in your heart? You were like, well, if only you knew why I wasn't there.
[00:42:21] Shane: [00:42:21] Yeah. That's exactly what it was because the signs and symptoms that I was showing, you know, for me, when I say to people, why should you look out for, is that withdrawal and kind of nature from a group and constantly kind of constant on events or things, but it was an easier excuse for me because it was, I would say plausible because exactly that where I could easily just pop it off of, you know, I just need to rest up here.
[00:42:42] I need to recover how to tough cycle, how to train and session, whatever it may be. And it was that guilt of the repression of my own identity, because I wanted to be amongst the lads. I wanted to be amongst, you know, the, the laugh and the joke and, you know, relaxing before the game or train them. But I just felt like [00:43:00] I was in situations when I went in and I was like, shit, I wish I didn't go into this.
[00:43:04] I wish I didn't put myself into this because I was there physically, mentally, my head was elsewhere. And it was the, I think I spoke about it in the bulk of, you know, imagining that you have headphones on and you're playing a song as loud as you can. And then you drop it down, you cut off the music and then you're back into the conversation.
[00:43:22] And then you put the music back up again, and it was just constant back and forth, back and forth. And that frightened me the decor because I was thinking, these are, these lines are going to pick up on this. They're going to know exactly what was going on. And as I kind of frightened and aspect of this is just not me, like what is going on.
[00:43:36] And, and that was the confusion because I'd be drawn from the group when I was at home and I had different excuses, whatever it may be. I know sat there trying to figure it out and all the water was trying to figure it out. Well, it was just manifesting into something worse and worse and worse because the fact of the matter is I didn't have anyone to lean on.
[00:43:52] I didn't have anyone to lean on in the aspect of mental health. It simply, if it was, it was very [00:44:00] harsh, you know, you don't speak about it. There was nothing like this, the likes of podcasts or, or kind of people doing public speaking events, or, you know, just even a bulk about mental health. You know, that simply wasn't as black.
[00:44:10] So Molly kind of thought was on the only one in the world going through this. And, and I'm just different. I don't want to be part of this world the way I'm thinking. Um, and that was unfortunately where my head was taking me day after day, time after time I constant on events or friends or family or whatever, the situation that I found myself in.
[00:44:30] Chris: [00:44:30] Do you like the, has anyone ever referred to your depression as highly functioning?
[00:44:35] Shane: [00:44:35] No,
[00:44:37] Chris: [00:44:37] in terms of like, I would consider what I have to be high functioning in that I can, um, act like a person who doesn't have depression. Um, I can do things that other people who are quote unquote successful do, and I can put in the hours and all this kind of stuff.
[00:44:56] And I can put on this charade, but, [00:45:00] um, I have depression. Okay. Yeah. So some people who are clinically diagnosed, they can't do certain things. It's so it's so, um, it's so heavy for them that they can't go to work and they can't go to the training or physically their bodies just won't allow them. Yeah. My body seems to allow me, but it is, um, it's exhausting.
[00:45:22] And what I'll say is that it, it, it gives you a different sense of guilt. Um, and I'm wondering, did you feel the same guilt and the guilt that I feel is I have everything that, um, I once wanted. Okay. Maybe I don't want that anymore. I have what other people want. Uh, people are telling me that I'm good at things.
[00:45:46] And people are, are patting me on the back and, you know, commandeering and
[00:45:49] all
[00:45:50] Chris: [00:45:50] sorts of great stuff. So from the outside, people are saying like, you know, you've got a grace, you know, living a dream, you're doing what you want. Then on the inside, [00:46:00] I'm kind of torn up because I'm like, Oh, I can't really tell you that I fucking hate this.
[00:46:05] And you know, I feel terrible because I'm kind of letting you down. No, I'm, I'm you have this expectation of me that I know that I can't keep up forever. And if I tell you I'm going to let you down, do you feel guilty about it? Yeah,
[00:46:25] Shane: [00:46:25] I certainly think, I think actually, um, you'd mentioned it earlier on, in terms of it was difficult, maybe for you to tell those who were closest to you and I completely get that because.
[00:46:36] Those who are closest to you feel like you don't want to burden them. You feel like exactly that you don't want to let them down with this devastating news, that you're not the person that you know, you're acting upon and, and the act and performance, you know, I very much seen as an, I actually contrast it.
[00:46:52] Two, I was on, this is gone off in a very different tangent here. I was hot, man. The Elaine show, not too long ago, back in 2019 [00:47:00] and Eric Lawler, um, a comedian was, was on the show and we're getting counted down. We're having a bit of a laugh and, you know, he's being himself and, and chatting away in different bits and pieces.
[00:47:10] And it was basically countdown three, two, one, and the laugh and joke and figure that was three seconds ago. It was just completely deadpan on like the Octa performance that he was going to put on for the show and the cameras. That's what I felt like when I was driving to training. I was trying to compose myself as trying to relax, trying to get a bit of rest away from the inner deem is that we're going deep within.
[00:47:32] Along that journey. And then once I opened that door, it was like, lights, camera, action. Okay. Let's put on an act and performance, your life shot again. And that was the thing after day after day. And it was the guilt of it because even when I went home, it wasn't as if I could just diffuse as like, right.
[00:47:46] Could, you know, I can diffuse here. I was hiding it from people who are, you know, under the same roof as me. And the only time that I could really kind of be myself or kind of like a big kind of deep exhalation of breath was [00:48:00] that, you know, when I was in my room, when I closed my door and I was like, okay, I'm in my own world.
[00:48:05] Here I am. The person that I am. And I don't know if you've ever, ever read the book, Chimp paradox by professor Steve Peters. It was, he basically the book kind of speaks about the kind of two voices going on in your head on essentially it's the two lives that people live. You are going through mental health difficulties, the warm life stuff.
[00:48:23] You want people to see, and then the other life that is actually the, the reality of who we are and, and the kind of constant repression of, of your own identity and how that can affect, um, not only yourself, but people around you, because it's essentially like a ticking time bomb. It's a ticking time bomb.
[00:48:39] It's like a volcano ready to erupt. And, and it took me two years to rope because as you pointed out, I kind of highly functioning person that it was, um, you know, I was constantly busy. I was constantly wanting to do things to make sure people aren't going to ask those questions on anniversary. Diana was just odd and even more and more pressure because [00:49:00] my life was going up our curve on yes.
[00:49:03] On the opposite end. My life was completely spiraled. It was gone. It was gone completely opposite away. And that was more and more difficult as it went on.
[00:49:13] Chris: [00:49:13] What
[00:49:13] Noel: [00:49:13] were you actually writer?
[00:49:17] Shane: [00:49:17] I was a frightened. You'll know the fair deal. No. And I would say because as I said, I had nothing to base what I was thinking or what I was feeling or how I was essentially acting and to anything else or anyone else, you know, you see, you know, your break, a leg, you see, okay, I need to get crutches and need to get a cast on.
[00:49:37] I need a certain set of, you know, uh, medications or a rehab in different bits and pieces. You see a path, you see a process, you see how it took it out of the other side. I simply didn't have that. So I, my fear was number one of the unknown. And then number two, the fear of judgment, that exact thing of those closest to me thinking that, you know, what, why are you telling us this?
[00:49:59] How would you be feeling this [00:50:00] way? You're, you're simply not feeling this way. You know, you're, you're paying for the 82 and a half thousand people every couple of every couple of weeks. You're, you know, you're 18 years of age, you're playing the dumb senior football team. You know, I remember when all those days of like the morning gym sessions, the 6:00 AM morning gym sessions, which get showered up after the session I be getting into my school uniform.
[00:50:18] Some of the lads to our teachers will be getting into their workloads if you like. And they were like, you could be my class this afternoon, you know? And so it's just the rarity of situation. So I guess it was the fear that judgment as well, that like Anna was so rational. And I think, and because, you know, look back, you know what I know now, you know, I wish I have spoken up in day one in the middle of fifth year, because it was so rational thinking, ha why or what my mom or dad, or my three sisters and my two best friends laugh at me.
[00:50:47] They'd simply love me. They want me to be happy in my own life. They want me to see, you know, the see happy end and kind of be functioning my everyday life. But yeah, I was thinking, no, these people are going to think I'm lying. They're going to laugh at me. And that's the irrational thinking that [00:51:00] your heart, you get off to a pattern of tasks and your salary think that is going to be the outcome.
[00:51:04] So that was the difficulty for me. I would say.
[00:51:08] Chris: [00:51:08] Yeah, it's, um, you know, South to is the most powerful form of life. And, um, we do justify these things to ourselves. You know, not telling people will save them from, you know, the sadness of knowing what's actually going on or, um, you know, not telling the lies will mean that I fit in.
[00:51:26] You know, I'm not, uh, I'm not dragging down the conversation. You know, I know groups, lads, it's always kind of about the laughs and the jokes and taking the piss and, you know, a bit of banter. And if you're the guy that's dragging it down and being like, Oh, you know, I'm actually crying. Um, every evening before I go to bed, you don't want to be that person, I guess, you know?
[00:51:46] Um, but ultimately, you know, we all learn. I think that when you do tell people, they'll tell you their own place, uh, as well. And I like, I like that idea of, um, You know, you mentioned that we kind of [00:52:00] maintain this perception for people. Um, normally, uh, I've, I've talked about this at length a lot, because I think at the end of 2019, I don't really know what happened to me, but I, I went through this process of, um, where I felt like I was living a lie, you know, I had maintained appearances and I think it was the first time I, I kind of identified that in me.
[00:52:21] And we went through all the stuff where I did a lot of reading around the idea of, of, um, congruence from Carolyn Rogers and individuation from Kara young and all of these kinds of psychological concepts of essentially becoming a person, you know, um, there's this idea that we kind of, we already are who we want to be, but it's just, we have to kind of take this jagged road to get there.
[00:52:45] Um, it's, it's a very unfortunate thing for. A young man or a young woman to go through or have to deal with in isolation. And I think depression is a very pernicious disease. You know, it starts off as being, you know, [00:53:00] I I've low mood here and there it's exhausting because you go from that to feeling good.
[00:53:04] And then, you know, you start, uh, feeling this joylessness, there was a kind of a process I could see happening in, in your book where it started off you being like, Oh, this is just hormonal. It's fine. You know, every time I play sport, I can mask it. And then you, you started self isolating, got into like excessive rumination where you started like thinking through things perhaps too deeply.
[00:53:26] What are these people thinking of me? What would they say? If I told him I need to maintain this appearance, because if I only come over to the car before training, you know, and, and, you know, have a bit of boundary with the lads, then they'll think there's something wrong with me. That's exhausting. Then you get this kind of lack of sleep.
[00:53:41] And I knew when the lack of sleep started coming in, you were going over the edge. That's, that's the. The point where it starts getting really hard because the one thing you have with sleep is that it, it, um, you know, the glymphatic system cleans out your brain and you, you can feel rested the next day.
[00:53:58] You may feel [00:54:00] shit still, but at least your body is rested in your mind may not be. Um, and then eventually I think it was perhaps six, or you need to kind of correct timelines here. Both. You started having these suicidal ideations. Yeah. Um, can you, can you perhaps describe, um, what that felt like and how that manifested for you?
[00:54:20] Yeah.
[00:54:20] Shane: [00:54:20] Just, it just seemed to touch upon your, your earlier point of, of that. Of, I love the fact that as in like, where I tried to get people to the point is you've educated yourself tenfold as in, around the kind of area of mental health. And I loved that because the more people know, the more people are aware, you know, we educate ourselves, have an opposite.
[00:54:37] Do you have any geography, history, maths, whatever it may be, but we don't educate ourselves better on mind. And, and, and that's where I tried to get people around the, how can we, you know, develop as a society? How can we kind of develop on from this stigmatize lawyers like develop, you know, your, your understanding of mental health, you know, you can't develop or move on or understand what is going on for you.
[00:54:58] If you're, aren't educating [00:55:00] yourself and reading open, knowing who you are, uh, within, I guess, and then to kind of lead on to that, I guess from that point of view, that one educated self and me, and not knowing from hormonal changes to, you know, say depressive episodes started getting worse and worse and worse, and then manifesting into a year and a half through my journey.
[00:55:20] And those first kind of thoughts of dying by suicide, the internal dialogue and the difficulty with me around that time was six days previous. I was in front of 82 and a half thousand people with the Sam Maguire and cost high above my head. And yet six days later, I didn't want any part of the world.
[00:55:37] And I know it was exactly that point of. Certainly now, how can I say this to anyone? You know, what if I taught people who are thinking I would be lying before, they certainly will be thinking this now. And, and it was a hugely scary topic because it was a talk that I didn't want to have all these talks.
[00:55:53] As I said, that little Chimp on my right shoulder was telling me one thing, the champion, my left shoulder was telling me another. [00:56:00] And I just felt like that inner voice, that inner negative voice was getting louder and louder and louder. And that scared me to the core. That scared me to the core. And I'll never forget that day when the first, you know, thoughts of dying by suicide came into my head and it was becoming more and more real.
[00:56:14] I didn't want to feel that way. I didn't want to think that way, but it was never leaving too far. By my side, I felt like as, as, as the train was bottle enough, it would reverse and come back and back and back. And I was like, no, no, keep going, keep going that way. Get away from me. But I couldn't, I couldn't make sense about it.
[00:56:29] That was a huge, scary task. I was thinking at once so deeply to be part of this world, I want to be part of something and want to be part of a journey. I want to live a long life, but yes, The other part of Shane saying, no, you're better off. You ended all here now.
[00:56:46] Chris: [00:56:46] Yeah, like I, I always remember feeling that, like I had some suicidal ideations too, you know, um, early on when I was 1920 and at different periods of, of my twenties.
[00:57:01] [00:57:00] Um, and I, I think like you, I'm perhaps an overthinker and I, uh, I tend to lean on books and, you know, I started to lean on philosophy in particular talks with last year I got into had like these concepts that perhaps I was only dipping into and I was taking them and kind of re-imagining them for myself, which you should, you know, if you're going to study philosophy, you need to go very deep into the one type to fully understand it.
[00:57:27] It's very nuanced, but I felt that like the word, the world was kind of. Absurd, you know, it didn't make any sense to me, you know, what's the point of all these things, you know, what's the point of making money. What's the point of doing anything? Um, and it, it kind of became progressively more difficult for me.
[00:57:46] Uh, but I kept going through these cycles of, um, depression, everyone telling me like, you've got depression and you need to start to shift out to coming out of it. Like I pull myself out of it [00:58:00] and somehow I don't know how, you know, it just dissipated. And then there'll be this process of denial where I kind of forget about it.
[00:58:07] Like, it didn't exist for me. Like I couldn't explain to people what it felt like. And, um, you know, there's a lot of times I didn't tell people because I felt like it's not worth telling people, you know, like I haven't, um, You don't use the
[00:58:26] word
[00:58:26] Chris: [00:58:26] commits by the way I want to ask you is that you're not, you're not supposed to say the word commit suicide.
[00:58:32] Shane: [00:58:32] Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was actually when I am thankfully. And, um, it was quite humbleness. Um, Pierre house had asked me to come, uh, come on board as an ambassador in 2019. And I had used stuff raise. I had used that kind of phrase of commit suicides and, and, uh, they had wanted me to kind of use a different line of died by suicide and cause commit, I think from there kind of thinking is, gosh, you're, it's [00:59:00] nearly an offense to, to kind of feel that way or want to act upon that.
[00:59:03] Yeah,
[00:59:04] Chris: [00:59:04] you're right. Actually the word commissioners isn't convincing,
[00:59:06] Shane: [00:59:06] commit a crime. It's talking
[00:59:08] Noel: [00:59:08] about that there's more guilt associated with it. It's 20 to take that off, take that off the bat kind of thing away from it. But it's just something that I was both of you are talking around with them. This is something I supposed to get across to people.
[00:59:22] And like that would have loved to get across to that 17 year olds that are, um, uh, 18 year old kid is that, but when we get these thoughts in our mind, and you touched on this, um, a few minutes ago of, of, um, you got into that kinda just, uh, spiral thinking, you know, the way you saw things and it's what I, what lots of therapists would call it would describe as your filter.
[00:59:46] So the way you see things so like that, if all you see the sun is shining inside, but if I've really dark glasses on it's as if the sun who we all know, which we all know is really, really bright, it seems really, really dark. So that's our filter. So every fit like, so you're a [01:00:00] lens that we're essentially that you're looking at with this life through.
[01:00:03] It's just a really dark filter. So like I'm looking at it or whoever's standing on the Hill 16. It's like looking at this bright-eyed maybe what kind of bear, bear goggles and a little bit as well. But if you're in the hail at that stage, But there's, Oh my God, there's this kid on his knee, lucky the luckiest guy in the world.
[01:00:20] But then you look at that. If you could imagine, like switching between two cameras and we looked through Jane's lands and it's just, I'd say that like the place could be just dripping with crap and just the, just horribleness of like, I know what I'm going back to when this has gone and if only they knew, um, but then I suppose bringing on sort of, it's trying to get talked about that our kid, and when we're in that kind of spiral thinking, we just think these suicidal ideations and thoughts of harming ourselves or talking about taking her own life.
[01:00:50] I mean, we just take that as given and that's the only way. And it's usually, you know, overwhelming on that. And we often tried to say to people like to try and understand it as [01:01:00] that. What often it's is the YouTube channel there? Jane, is that yes. There's a huge part of you that wants to stay alive. And what often happens is if you, the way I describe it as if you can imagine it in your left hand is life.
[01:01:12] And then your right hand is, is ending the pain that you're in. Cause you're like you're in just so much pain, emotional, mental, physical pain, it can manifest itself. But unfortunately what can often happen is when we're in that really dark place, we mashed the two together and we think, Oh, well, at the end, the end is pain.
[01:01:29] I have to end my life. And it's, it's, it's trying to get to a point. And, and thankfully you got the point on, you're spreading the word of that point of it actually don't match the two hands together. The best thing to, to end is pain. That's in your right hand, it's by keeping your life and you know, and that's absolutely the best way to look like that.
[01:01:51] The best way to, to end the pain is the key is actually used the life itself. But it's, it's trying to get those tools obviously and, and do give the things, you know, [01:02:00] thereafter, you, you make that decision and that choice to say, no, no, I'm going to, I'm going to do what I can to get there. Um, but then obviously they'd be given the tools and, and that's put out, but it's just knowing in those moments, because that's what we're trying to deal with that at that time, when someone's in that desperate situation as a therapist or as a family member, as a friend, you know, you're just trying to just borrow your time.
[01:02:19] You know, some you'd often hear people and people are listening to what she's, what would I do if my friend said to me, or something like that, boy, as much time as you can try and get that peak moment, uh, so they can hear you and say, okay, so I suppose maybe if I keep my life, then that's the best way to end this pain and it's getting that point across.
[01:02:38] Shane: [01:02:38] Yeah. Uh, and I loved, I kind of the way I look at that kind of way and different analogies, different kinds of quotes or sayings, and kind of quote that I love was, and rock bottom became the solid foundation there where we built my life and I kind of loved that kind of quote, but I love that kind of visual aspect of I've hit [01:03:00] rock bottom here.
[01:03:00] The structures that the house has completely fallen down. Well, yeah. Now we'll have a chance to rebuild a structure here in a different way, because the same house that you know was once there before is not going to be helpful. Those structures that were in place are going to just kind of dwindle again, if it get back to that.
[01:03:16] So let's build it there from the, let's get these foundations in place and that's build up again. And even the way I looked upon was, you know, reboot my mind, I'm going to became the kind of, that person of, you know, wanting a bit of this life once in a bit of, you know, something in the future and looking forward, um, and actually having, um, you know, clarity in my own mind, Duff, these thoughts that are going through my head, these irrational thoughts of, I want them to die by suicide to end the pain is absolutely not the, not the answer to us.
[01:03:46] And, you know, it's going to permanently cause damage to not only of course, myself, but everyone around me on his side, kind of when I was in that moment and I had the guilty moments where. I toss a, could end the pain. And I didn't [01:04:00] think for one second, the impact that it would have on the people around me, whether it be my friends or family and or anyone outside of that circle.
[01:04:08] And, and that was certainly a guilty kind of thought that I had as well. A number of times where I felt like I don't care. It will just be so good for me. If I can just end this right now and it will be better for opposite. We have went around me and, and it began to believe that top process you believe to kind of, I guess, convince yourself of this is the way I am so glad that I had so many good people around me that kind of brought me back to that kind of reality of, you know, real life people mean something to me, deep, deep down.
[01:04:38] I knew that I had it right down and grain me that I wanted to be part of this world. Um, and that's maybe why I never took that step. That so many times I wants to put deep, deep down. I knew. I want it to be part of it. I knew people love me. I knew I was worth a bit of something. And, but it's about exactly getting to that point.
[01:04:56] And it's so hard because of painted up point. It's so hard [01:05:00] to rationalize that when you're at that point, but once you kind of got that clarity, you know, it's, it's so, so beautiful to now that you have a life to look forward to that.
[01:05:09] Chris: [01:05:09] Yeah. Like it's very difficult when you, like, we speak about these things, but kind of a, uh, a perfect narrative now, like these moments in time, but when you're living in, it feels like an eternity, right?
[01:05:21] Like what got me out of those situations, I think was that idea that, um, I have these people to live for and I actually didn't want them to feel, I rationalized it as, I didn't want them to feel. They would probably feel like I felt in that moment, if I did that, I didn't want anyone else to feel like me.
[01:05:38] So, but I was lucky that I was able to get that rationalization. Cause you're, you're, there's a fork in the road there and a lot of people don't and a lot of people rationalized it as everyone's better off. And I think it's very dangerous when people start to think that the world is better off. If I wasn't in it, that's the point where people are at acute levels.
[01:05:58] And as Nolan said, you just [01:06:00] have to, by the time, get them through it. Um, and just get them to the point where they can gain that perspective. You know? Sorry, Chris,
[01:06:07] Noel: [01:06:07] there's also the thing, you know, we've talked about this in other episodes of, so that's the kind of the reactive part of it, but it's important to Shane and all this it's really, really, we are not really, um, it's important to ha to be proactive in it.
[01:06:22] So if someone kind of goes by is what he's doing, the podcast, what's the whole point. It is it's to be proactive. Because if you already it's the SAS and the satin setting, kind of, you know, if you're walking into something that's already out there. So for example, if it's an 18 year old kid and he hears the conversation was, Oh, I think I've heard this before.
[01:06:41] And we can still go into that deep hole. What if he's gone into the whole coming from a place that they've already talked about, this it's like, Oh, Oh shit. I remember that now. Whereas Jane or myself and lots of other people, and we could have walked into that hole, but we didn't hear that. And it's very hard to hear new, but [01:07:00] if you've already heard something, at least it's there, it's in the memory.
[01:07:02] Yeah.
[01:07:03] Chris: [01:07:03] Yeah, definitely. I want to talk about Lester final day Shane. Um, but I'm also very interested in just from a personal perspective, why you did eventually, you know, speak to your mom, I think was the first person you talked to. Um, but you had to muster the courage. You either made a decision. To tell her our, it just came out of you.
[01:07:30] Okay. And for me, um, you know, I think the first time I really told the people closest, closest, closest to me, how, how really bad it was was last year. I think in like marathon, I had a breakdown and it was just circumstantial. I just kind of, I don't like using the word broke, but I, I broke. Okay. And the people that needed to hear what I needed to say were there because of lockdown.
[01:07:57] And so I'm thankful to lockdown for that. It was, it was the most, [01:08:00] I think, um, heavy periods of growth and spiritual growth and all sorts of growth I've ever had in my life because we were forced to be together at that moment a time when I was forced to kind of let this all out. But did you, you know, leading off that moment, did you kind of crack and, and let it all out by accident?
[01:08:18] Or did you say I have to say
[01:08:19] Shane: [01:08:19] something? I, I think when I look back, it was a blessing in disguise. It was circumstantial boss. For a number of weeks leading up to that point of, you know, telling my mom, you know, what little I did know what was going on for me at least. And I was trying to build up the courage for many, many kind of months at that stage.
[01:08:36] And I unfortunately kind of had the thoughts of dying by suicide from any mines at that stage. And I was thinking, I want a better part of this world that got that clarity, Emmy. I don't want to feel this way. I don't act upon, okay. I need to reach out. And how do I reach out? And which was then my next question.
[01:08:52] And the difficulty that I had was in around that time of thinking that I wanted to speak up, my granddad passed away. [01:09:00] Firstly, and then six weeks after my nanny had passed away to both my mom's side. So all the, while all the stress that I was under a pay, I need to speak up. What would I say? How would I approach it?
[01:09:09] What would I do? All this was going on the other side. So every time I was like, okay, I'm ready to go. We were hit with a desolate low first off on my granddad. And then when my granny, so I was thinking that exact piece that you were, you were saying you were fearful of. Burdening those around you. I didn't want to burden, especially my mom.
[01:09:25] She's lost both her mom and dad within the space of six weeks. And I think at that point then often a past number 90 and a couple of weeks have passed and that lands are fine in the morning. And if I was deported stuff, the game was over. And those kinds of cracks that my mom and dad did later, a myth and that they talked to Racine for many, many months was right in front of my mom's always, it was the first time that she'd seen her 19 year old, six foot three.
[01:09:51] So on, in a flood of tears and on for her, I guess it was obviously a reconfirmation of what she taught you was seen. [01:10:00] And she of course didn't know the extent of what it was right in front of her. And, and I didn't speak a whole lot to her and in around a time, but I definitely knew that I wanted to speak up at that stage.
[01:10:10] I was thinking the game is over here. I can't tolerate this anymore. I'm literally in a Florida tears. My mom is seeing me for the first time. So let's not what, why not take this step and under step that I did take wasn't. A massive one in the context of, I didn't tell her everything, but it was massive in another context that I took that first step of saying a couple of words of saying I've been feeling this way for so many years, again, not being able to rationalize in my head or kind of have a clarity of like, exactly this has happened.
[01:10:39] This has happened. This has happened, but at least it was then air. And now for the first time that someone else has known exactly what was going on with me.
[01:10:47] Chris: [01:10:47] Yeah. I'm going to speak about this later shame. But I think that, um, for me personally, I don't know about you, but when you do tell people, you tell them in, it's almost like you're [01:11:00] testing, um, you put something out and then you tell a little bit more, a little bit more.
[01:11:03] And there are still things inside of me that I haven't explained to people because I'm just not ready to, you know, there are. Like things that are people I need to speak to. And, and, and, you know, I, I want to tell a certain people, uh, how I feel, and I eventually I would get there and I'll tell the people who were important, um, enough, you know, I'll tell them what I need to tell them.
[01:11:27] And, you know, you know, I still have that sense of protection in me. And I, I am only guessing, but I have a high degree of probability. Do you have it in you that you still want to protect the people around you? You know, you still want to make sure that they're okay and you know that they're not carrying the burden of your burden all the time.
[01:11:48] You know, our parents always worry about us. Um, and I hate knowing that my parents worry about me cause I worry about them fucking constantly. So it's this constant circle of worry that he's not good for anyone, you know? Um, [01:12:00] but I, I. I want to talk to you about the day of the lessor formula, just to set the scene for people listening on.
[01:12:06] I haven't been very good at this in previous podcasts, but it's for people who don't know exactly what's happening here, Shane is what age were you at the time? Shane and 19 is 19. Okay. So I'll explain for Dublin, it's a day of the, uh, lens to final ministers of province in Ireland. Who were you playing and meet me.
[01:12:25] You just had this moment with, um, his mom he's in his bedroom and then they have to make a decision to, um, allow him to play the game. Or he has to make a decision to play the game. Um, and the game, like it ends up being, not what I expected, you know, it kind of, I read it in disbelief, like what the fuck is going on?
[01:12:45] How can this happen? But can you, can you tell us what happened in the game or how the game panned out for you?
[01:12:51] Shane: [01:12:51] Yeah, so the whole day I was unsure of whether it was going to play and throw out a series of my mom. A big cliff walk with [01:13:00] my sister in the middle of the day and had landed at the match and no fuel into me.
[01:13:05] I think I'd have a supporter opposite of Luke's side. Um, and for any listeners, absolutely not them also telling thing to be doing before a massive match, um, or for any physical exercise at all, but particularly for a match. And, um, what was going on for me, Dan, when I get out and not pitch, it was if, when it crossed the white line, the dark demons say they're at the sides.
[01:13:28] And I could be that kind of kid in a playground, a hoppy shame once more. And when I was pounding on every single blade of grass, I'll never forget that I'll never forget those 60 minutes. And, uh, and I think I said it in the book where I'd say to this day, seven years on, it was most satisfying, 60 minutes of football I've ever played in my life.
[01:13:46] I was like a kid in the playground. Again, I was roaming around, not a tart in the world of just man ball. Let's win this match. Um, and I didn't want to get cut off the pitch. I was in my safe Haven. And Anna was a [01:14:00] place where I felt like I could really be me. I could really express who I wanted to be on the outside, on the outside world, I guess.
[01:14:08] And even remember moments of, you know, halftime, you know, thinking, you know, you want to get a breath here. You want to get a bit of fluids and kind of reevaluate what was going on for the first off. That was an inconvenience to me. I remember like standing open and dressing and we didn't even sit down and I stood open the dress and I'm like, come on.
[01:14:25] And I was, I need to get back to this here. As in like, you know, this is like a burden to, to what I was feeling and
[01:14:32] Chris: [01:14:32] it's, uh, it's strange to think about this. Okay. So he's even smiling telling this story. You can see him, but, um, he's recounting this with a broad smile. So like you're at halftime, you're raring to go.
[01:14:46] Um, you win the game.
[01:14:48] Shane: [01:14:48] We win the game by think, I might remember maybe four or five points
[01:14:53] Chris: [01:14:53] and Shane gets mad at a match. Yeah. Think about that for a second. He's just had, perhaps I don't think [01:15:00] it's the, Nadeer the bottom point of your entire story, but it's, it's certainly the lowest point you've had or the most emotionally vulnerable you've been probably in your entire life that I point.
[01:15:11] And you go to this game and you, I don't know if you're familiar with the concept of flow state, but you, you find the sense of flow state, like, and there are points in your book, right? I think you touch on mindfulness in the end. You, you, you began talking about meditation, but early on you say that study and exercise, they were distractions.
[01:15:31] Distractions are those things that get us into this state of flow, where we are. Here. And now in the present there we are kind of, um, no one. And I've been back and forth about this episode of the peak performance podcast with Jonny Wilkinson, where I don't know if you've ever heard or listened to this particular episode, but us energy afterwards, if you haven't cause it's, it's absolutely profound.
[01:15:52] It's not what you expect to hear from Johnny Wilkinson. Um, it was the epitome of, of hard work, you know, but he talks about all of him in [01:16:00] every moment. That's what he wants for, uh, that's his prescription for a happy life or a good life, a contented life. And you in that moment where the real Shane character, you know, you are the Shane character that you knew yourself to be.
[01:16:15] And it didn't matter if there were a million people watching you there, you know, you were the Jan character that you were comfortable being kicking a football, you know, and running around. And, you know, even though descriptions feel childlike, but it's the juxtaposition of, you know, this hellish moment of telling your family.
[01:16:34] Hm, um, with this euphoria of, you know, playing your fucking socks off, getting out of the match, winning the game, and then be immediate, um, uh, kind of fall back to, okay. Now I have to deal with the reality of this situation again. And I always talk to people about, uh, confronting, um, your discomfort and like leaning into discomfort because so much of us spent so [01:17:00] much of our time, um, distracting ourselves, not introspecting.
[01:17:05] And I worry for people that have never. Um, had the, I see depression as a bit of an opportunity for, for people like you and I, not, not that getting to the suicidal stage is a positive, but you and I have both now come to a stage where we're very self-reflective and most people don't get that opportunity because they don't, they aren't confronted with this idea of you have your, you know, you're mentally ill and most people think of the mind when you talk about the mind, you're like, Oh, there'll be talking about that.
[01:17:34] You know? Woo bullshit. You know, when you talk to me, just sort of some sort of philosophy, you know, or some Eastern religion or something, but no, you have a brain, I'm sorry. Everyone has a brain and everyone walks around with this. Um, but that particular moment to me in the book, I kind of had to stop and go, uh, know how did that happen?
[01:17:53] You know, and the moments proceeding that, or after that game, what happened to you
[01:17:58] Shane: [01:17:58] immediately after, [01:18:00] um, cast opened a pedestal, like my manometry awards, and I wanted to get off that pedestal as quicks as I went off. And went back into the dressing room, put my wor back into my gear bag, lots, celebrating around me that exact thing of not feeling the elation that I should have felt particularly after getting Amanda much and not only Winelands are finding both Amanda match itself.
[01:18:20] And when I went, I phoned my mom and dad. And the following day, I found myself on a, on a plane after Stockholm. And that is that's where my sister Michelle, um, lives to this day. And she moved over in 2013. And I guess the reason behind that was that my mom had got taught that I was perhaps hiding something from them that I wasn't quite comfortable confiding with the men and that I could share at my older sister, Michelle.
[01:18:46] Cause I had always done that in years previous, anything, any data instead of hot, but I wasn't quite comfortable with. I always went to my older sister, Michelle and they were thinking, okay, this is just another example of that. Um, but little, did they [01:19:00] know little? Did she know what I was coming to her wit and, and even that time around Stockholm, I went to Copenhagen back to Stockholm.
[01:19:08] That was a dark, dark time in my life. And to put it mildly,
[01:19:13] Chris: [01:19:13] yeah. Bent up that part of the book wrecked me. Um, there was this moment where you, I think you had gone for a walk or they were bringing you for lunch or something like that. And you described the moment where like, you just couldn't hold it in anymore.
[01:19:27] You kind of been like dancing around it and then you just burst into tears, you know, hadn't happened and, you know, described it to them. Or I do the best of your ability described. Uh, what you were feeding. Um, and it just touched me, but it also brought back horrible memories. And, you know, sometimes we're like forced into this position and then it just has to come out of us that this is what's going on.
[01:19:52] And it's like an outpouring of emotion. I don't know if you remember what it was like, but I remember telling people and just being like, sounding like a [01:20:00] blubbering idiot and just being like, I can't do this anymore. You know, I need to get it out of me or, you know, I don't know what the fuck is going on, but please help me, you know, I can't describe it properly.
[01:20:12] Um, but that, that particular point, like the book set me off, you know, in, for the rest of the book, I couldn't stop crying every time you mentioned something. I was like, Oh fuck, here we go again. Um, but, but this, this led up to you coming home and I thought it was very poignant that you were describing.
[01:20:29] You didn't want to come home and I've been there, you know, when you go on holidays and you don't want to come back to your real life, um, and. You do come home and there's this period, you know, from the point of telling your parents too, to being admitted to St. Potts is about two weeks. I think you got the actual name of the chapter is those two weeks or something like that.
[01:20:48] Yeah. Um, and you eventually get into St. Potts. Okay. And, you know, I think it's fair to say that because of the [01:21:00] position you're in and who you are, and whenever things were expedited for you, you know, I know that, um, just being admitted to St Patty's and as easy as, as just having a mental illness, now, you, you, there's a lot of things you could do.
[01:21:11] And, you know, seeing psychologists not going to stuff is, is difficult for people, you know, I was able to hire no. Um, because I have means, I know a lot of people who are trying to use the public system who, um, are on long, long waiting lists, but we can talk about that later on in the episode, but can you talk to us about St.
[01:21:31] Pats and your experience? Um, All the same pots. What you thought when, before you went to St. Potts, um, you know, what it did for you? The people there, the relationships you built, you know, let's go through.
[01:21:47] Shane: [01:21:47] Yeah. So St. Potts to the first, uh, on the abiding memory that I have on my first ever morning and how I had gotten in there, I'd essentially taken a panic attack.
[01:21:57] So my next memory [01:22:00] was, uh, from taking the panic attack on the outside world was then being opened up on the other side of the mental hospital and two soft-spoken nurses, right by my side, telling me where he was. And, and immediately once I I'll never forget the time when it's that mental hospital, I took myself to shorter islands and one of my all time favorite films.
[01:22:20] And, um, I I've seen it. I've seen sort of shorter. Yeah.
[01:22:23] Chris: [01:22:23] Oh, of course.
[01:22:27] Shane: [01:22:27] And in so many weird unfocused, hopefully it's a great film, but immediately the analogy I brought myself into and the imagery that brought myself to was that exact thing that they painted in shorter Island of a dark jury room, people in straitjackets, headboard and walls.
[01:22:42] And I stopped, I was convinced I was convinced that's where I was. And, and that immediately kind of scale of course, to put it mildly again, scared me to the core. And on a very quickly realized within, I would say a few minutes, 20, 30 minutes of being told where I was and being [01:23:00] told, you know, you need to go into breakfast room.
[01:23:01] Even. I thought I was like, I'm not going into the breakfast room. Kind of thinking that I'm going to see people, you know, Exactly what I thought was and showed her Island. And it was anything bought. When I went into the breakfast room, uh, met people who I'm still friends with today. They made those couple of days maybe deputies and what it should have been.
[01:23:18] And, and immediately, I would say within a couple of hours, just kind of get my feet in the grounds and a small bit of clarity and a small bit of Headspace, my immediate irrational perception of mental hospital diminished and, and to kind of paint a picture that I was set into this, uh, Sammy security unit.
[01:23:36] And so you're confined to a certain area of a 10 by 10 garden and you have a corridor or rooms, maybe I think if I'm right in saying maybe six or seven each sides, and then you kind of have like an open kind of area where you have bean bags, you have chairs, you have a TV, you have a coffee stand. And then the nurses are just, you know, going about the area, just checking up on you and everything.
[01:23:56] And. To paint a picture. That's what it was like. Um, and that was [01:24:00] my first kind of initiation into it. And I was, I think it touched upon that point of denial. I was certainly in denial of where I was and I was certainly in denial of what I was facing up to. And I know it was only after a number of weeks being in there that a massive turning point for me and on the geek and relate to disgrace as well, where that acceptance piece of, yeah, I am Maryam.
[01:24:24] I am dealing with, I'm dealing with at the minute, in the shape of depression. And even when it was, when that was diagnosed, I was like, you think maybe I seen that as a negative. I've seen that as a huge positive that I actually can name. What is it is because that's all it was to me. It was, if I didn't know I've mental health, as I said, depression, whatever it may be.
[01:24:43] Once I was diagnosed, it was like, okay, I've accepted where I am. I'm I kind of, I would say the 11 weeks I spent in total and. Was hugely open down by many, many dark moments, many bright moments. And, but that's exactly what depression is in its essence. [01:25:00] It's, it's opened down and it's about how, how you're dealing with those highs and lows.
[01:25:04] And I know slowly learned as I went through a number of group therapies in order kind of, um, realm that I wasn't subjected to or open to a that point. And, and even I kind of touched upon, you know, the institution that it is stuff, ease of conversation around mental health. It was like talking about the weather, you know, people ask me, Oh, what are you in for?
[01:25:23] Are you on medication? I was like, I know you would ask me, this is a allowable. Um, I was slowly being intertwined into that kind of normalization of the conversation that I needed to have so many years previous. Um, Anna was a massive, massive Burnham. Yeah. It was the total opposite
[01:25:43] Noel: [01:25:43] of what you were used to shop for your mommy.
[01:25:46] That's so incredible.
[01:25:48] Shane: [01:25:48] And that's the thing I did get. It took me a long, long time. I'd say two or three weeks to get a lot of getting used to, and even to touch upon maybe even a story that put it into perspective. For me, it was, um, eh, when Mick [01:26:00] Galvin. So as he said, I had a big hand in terms of the people who were around me to resources, that I was very, very fortunate to have and to shape it.
[01:26:07] Desi Pharrell, who was my manager for Dublin and myGov and who was a selector. And it would a couple of contacts in St. Pat's to get me in and so quickly. And it said to me, Shane, look, I know football is a massive part of your life. I was so tunnel vision and thinking that was the only thing going on for me.
[01:26:22] He'd said, look, if you're parked on the side and he's solely focused on your mental health for the next two or three months, whatever it takes you 80 years, your life to look forward to. And it's probably sounds so simple, but to put it in that perspective, that broadened my horizons to think, okay, I'm going to do this.
[01:26:39] I'm going to go after this. I'm going to give it the best of my ability. Those kinds of things that were ingrained so many years ago from my dad do this to your best of your ability. And that was then my kind of thing of, okay, I'm going to go off to this as hard as I can, and let's see where it takes me.
[01:26:54] Chris: [01:26:54] It's funny that you bring back that, um, application of, of hardware to something like this. I do the same. [01:27:00] I I'd be remiss not to tell people that, um, if you have a mentality like Shane and I, that you have to be careful about how you approach your mental health and all will tell you this, you know, he'd be the first to tell you that I have had lots of times where I don't do much, you know, I had your, uh, everyone's fucking morning routine stacked on top of morning routines and night routines.
[01:27:20] And, you know, I was over exercising and, um, you know, over managing everything, I was tracking every little detail in my day and I'll just kind of things, you know, I think sometimes we have to be careful just to let go. You talk about that acceptance. Um, and I it's evident. From the book. Um, and I think that people need to buy the book and read the book, especially people who have experienced depression for the sense of resonance you get, um, in sharing in Jane's story.
[01:27:51] Um, but also because, you know, we are doing a podcast here. I can't tell you the, the, all the details, um, and you know, the, the emotional turning points [01:28:00] and then ice telling details that, that Shane gives in the book. Um, but it's very evident as you kind of close out your time in St. Pats, and you go through the young adult program, um, you, you have widened the aperture through which you do, you see the world, you know, um, and you talk.
[01:28:22] Funnily, I should have trademarked his fucking thing, but I use a mental health toolkit as well. Is that something that I got from you and all? I don't know. I, I continue to steal people's ideas, but I have the same thing. I don't have the, I like this idea that there are a series of things that I can
[01:28:37] pull
[01:28:37] Chris: [01:28:37] out of the box when I need to.
[01:28:40] And there are series of things I just have to do every day. And you know, today when I I'm, I'm telling you that I'm feeling, no, there are series of things I need to do. You know, like if I go straight back into work after this, I'll, um, avoid it and then able to build up. So I need to kind of, I need to go for a walk and I [01:29:00] need to, um, like I meditate daily.
[01:29:02] So I normally, when I get to this stage, I meditate maybe twice and I need to journal. So I need to, I need to write through how I feel right now, um, and what I need to do to get out of it. And you know, like I tried to question what came about. You know, uh, you know, I'll talk about your book and I'll talk about the memories that are brought up and, uh, it'll it, the things that are brought to the Ford, like I still need to have some conversations, you know, there's an element of fear there about that and, and anticipation.
[01:29:28] So can you talk about your, um, toolkit and you know, what you, you pull on and, you know, people have techniques, but it's not always a technique. Um, it's just things you do, I guess.
[01:29:41] Shane: [01:29:41] Yeah. And I, and I think it's important in terms of that kind of the mental health toolbox. It's important to even say it's very individualistic.
[01:29:48] What works for me may not work for you, but it's important for people to realize what works for you on a bed, you know, picking those tools. And then on those bad days and an effort to name my top three, it probably comes as no [01:30:00] surprise as, as physical exercise. Is there a number one? And it got me through two years at the worst point in my life and on hopefully the worst point that I'll ever get to in my life.
[01:30:10] And so we still rely upon it. And these, these days when I do have my bad days, um, and to be open and transparent as, as we all are here, as you have been critics quite often and saying that we all have our good and bad days and, and right to this day, I'm not sitting here saying I released the book and everything is rosy in my world because it's not.
[01:30:27] And as a kind of follow on from that, I guess, number two, the kind of playlist or podcasts that are like the kind of those kinds of things that brings me to a happier time and place, whether it be with a family member or a friend or a certain holiday, and those kinds of things that, you know, remind me of places that bring me to, uh, a way I should say from the kind of negative perceptions that may be kind of going in in my head.
[01:30:51] And, and then number three, I would say is talking to friends. You know, I'll be probably through what we're doing here through zoom or, or whatever. It may be Microsoft [01:31:00] teams or anything like that, but just talking to friends and I spoke about it, that kind of ease of conversation. And that I have my friends now that I can pick up the phone, like, and meet them for coffee and say, lots, I am open the walls here.
[01:31:11] I know I need to talk to you about this, this and this and that kind of individual nature of if I refer to a story of, if that's okay, back in St. Potts in what was called the young adult program, he touched upon it there. And we're going around in our group therapy sessions, speaking about our mental health toolbox, you know, what you're referring to on your bad days.
[01:31:28] And of course I speak about physical exercise music, meeting up with friends, speaking to them on a turns to the right of me, as aware as a 20 year old male. And he said, I do, but a Nitan. How long he was looking at, like, I kinda stuck around, I was like the chapter saying like the next day I found myself knit and then this group therapy session, my dad absolutely came here for us.
[01:31:50] Um, absolutely didn't work for me, but
[01:31:53] Chris: [01:31:53] I
[01:31:54] Shane: [01:31:54] think it's just a prime example of like, he was 22 years of age Nitten was in his methyl toolbox. [01:32:00] I was 19 years of age physical exercise was in my mouth and all toolbox. So he knew what was good for him. He went after it every single day. And as did I so find what works for you.
[01:32:09] I'm putting it in there every single day.
[01:32:11] Chris: [01:32:11] Yeah. Like, um, I believe in this idea that mood follows action, you know, and, uh, we can downregulate or upregulate our mood and there's this very good book called the, the. Buddha's brain or to put his mind or something he's prescription for like, uh, a good life is I'm not sure if you're familiar with the sympathetic nervous system, but there's parasympathetic and sympathetic.
[01:32:33] I'm sure like the swore scientists around the Dublin team have talked to you about this and don't regulating and, um, going parasympathetic after games and all this kind of stuff. And his prescription is to live largely in the parasympathetic state, which is kind of your rest and digest state and do have periodic boats of sympathetic, which is going to be your fight flight, flight, flight, fight, fight, or flight state.
[01:32:58] Um, and [01:33:00] I get the sense with people that, um, you know, they want to attack this, you know, when they're ill, they want to attack it and they want to combat it. And they use all these kinds of military terms. But what I have found to be useful for me is more about, um, it's more. About recognizing it's more about awareness and it's about, I try and, um, become aware of what is perhaps happening to me.
[01:33:28] I feel like it's like going through me, you know, like I feel like the depression, the early signs I'm feeling right now or are like something that is like a wash, that's going to go through me and if I'm aware of it and I allow it to pass and I kind of recognize what's happening and then I can reframe it because I have a fear.
[01:33:45] I don't know if you have this fear of remission. And, uh, I, I fear and I hate to use the expression, but losing my mind, you know, I fear and it, it taints certain aspects of my life, you [01:34:00] know? Um, and I wanted to ask you about this, you know, on a, on a personal level, um, about how depression has humbled me, I guess, in a way that I have had to kind of re-imagine my life a little bit.
[01:34:13] Um, but you have this toolkit now and you have these, these. You know, I think people have, I've heard your other interviews with you and in your book. And I think there are people who want to put a sense of finality to it. Um, you know, this isn't a fucking Hollywood movie, you know, there's no stone and like that, um, I, I am of the belief that I will likely live with this, um, disorder in this or whatever you want to call it a function of the mind for my entire life.
[01:34:42] Do you, you think that you've had to kind of re-imagine your life to live with this depression? Um, and do you think that it has humbled you in any way, are there any of your
[01:34:55] aspirations
[01:34:56] Chris: [01:34:56] that you've been like, look, I just, I need to, you know, pull back on that [01:35:00] or I'm going to change my behavior in this respect.
[01:35:03] Shane: [01:35:03] Yeah. I, I think it comes back to the kind of the point that I made about that acceptance piece. Um, I'm, I'm not naive and thinking that have come such a long way, that this is something that I don't need to look after anymore. And I, and I'm completely fine with death. Um, and that was, as I said, a massive turning point for me was accepting that piece, that this is just like a look after my physical health, every single day, I'm going to look after my mental health every day.
[01:35:27] It's just another part of the structure or kind of systems that I have to go after every single day to make sure I'm all there. And that's, I guess exactly what I've spoken to with people. It's funny that you say it, that kind of fear of remission on the, going back to the point where you once were and it's possibly, you could say I've put pressure on myself to, to kind of make sure to let it down, but I've always said I'm on a very, very, I would say firm and a stance that I will never get back to the point that where I once was simply because of the amount of structures and support systems that I have there, [01:36:00] of course I can have points where I, you know, fall back on half my good and bad days of even not as I spoke about at the top of the podcast, I mean, quite overwhelmed these last kind of couple of months, but the beauty of it is that.
[01:36:11] It only took me a couple of weeks to realize that red took me a couple of years the last time. So, you know, too many people, too many resources, too much help around me to allow me to get back to that point. And I'm very, very confident in the fact that I can rely upon that I can trust in that. And I know that deep down and, and yeah, you could, you could say, you can look at, upon as a pressure aspect that's um, um, possibly, you know, um,
[01:36:37] Chris: [01:36:37] well look just person to person, a person who's had depression to person who has had depression.
[01:36:44] Um, I think that I've had to recognize that, you know, just getting up in the morning and putting a smile on my face. I mean, I, I have had to say, I accept that I'm enough in that respect, you know, and everything else after that [01:37:00] is like a, a bonus for me. Um, and what I'd say to you is that, you know, Don't put pressure on yourself to, to be well all the time, you know, you know, you talk about an acceptance.
[01:37:11] I have had a lot of
[01:37:12] time
[01:37:13] Chris: [01:37:13] where perhaps I've spent, um, uh, an inordinate amount of time studying this stuff and trying to understand it and it's theoretical. Yeah. Um, to me, and then sometimes it becomes internalized through experience, but, you know, I have been with Nolan for five years now, so he's seen a lot of it, the snapshots, the, the highs and the lows and the peaks and the troughs are less frequent and they're less severe for sure.
[01:37:40] Yeah. But, you know, even when we start to do so, I think Dan's probably seen it twice, um, already. And he's only known me since last June. So, um, my last kind of episode I think was in October, but that I, the immediate effect that has on me is I'm like, you fucking idiot. You don't let it happen [01:38:00] again. What are you doing?
[01:38:02] What is wrong with you?
[01:38:07] I was like, this happened, that's what I go through. You know, I, I, I keep deriding myself cause I'm like, no, you cannot, you have to like maintain this like optimal level all the time. And I read in your book about you kind of, it's taking a step back from your master's and I was very glad that at the beginning you were kind of saying, look, I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed.
[01:38:27] And I'm like, for me, what I've the stage that I've come to is that when I start to feel overwhelmed, I continually like question, why do I feel overwhelmed? What is, what is it that I am doing that is making me feel like this? And, you know, I spoke earlier about what normal has been doing about this kind of idea of congruence and congruence is that there are.
[01:38:49] Experiences. Okay. And then there, the emotions of that experience, and then there's what you feel in your mind. Right. And there, if there is not a connection and all of those come [01:39:00] together, then you are kind of like being torn apart as you what's called cognitive dissonance. You have like you're in two minds all the time.
[01:39:06] Yeah. Um, and you know, my appeal to you would just to be, um, kind to yourself, you know what I was just asking me just to be a bit kinder to myself and I'll go around telling everyone that like, yeah, I'm taking care of myself, you know, leave me the fuck alone. You know, I know what I'm doing. I know what I'm doing.
[01:39:21] I know all about it. You know, I can spoke the most fucking, um, bullshit of anyone I know about this stuff, but you know, in the moment am I going to actually take the time off or am I actually going to, um, accept that? I'm, I'm at an old point now, Like I can notice it in a day now. So I can, I know the day before I know probably today's going to be acute or tomorrow, and I know that I can kind of get through it if I do these things.
[01:39:52] Um, but I, I will still deny it up to that point. And I was still going around and telling everyone that I'm grand, [01:40:00] uh, even though I'm probably feeling overwhelmed and, uh, you know, the things that has actually worked for me is I continually tell people that are in mind inner circle. Um, these are the signs and I've actually heard someone recently say that they wrote out all of the signs of their depression and they gave it to their wife.
[01:40:17] Wow. The early signs. And they said, you remind me, um, When this happens because I have continually gone around and being like, I'm granting of grant the grant, even alone, I'm fine. I'm working on it. I'm getting psychotherapy. I'm doing all this stuff. I'm exercising every day. Don't worry about it. And meditating every day.
[01:40:33] I'm fine. And then I won't notice that justification thing. And then all of a sudden I start making bad decisions. You know, like last night I, I was like, kind of feeling Lorne. I was like, fuck, I'll get a takeaway. You know, my stocks and best this morning, although all those things add up, okay. All those bad decisions then add up and I'll justify, justify, justify in bank, you know, I'm low.
[01:40:56] Um, but I, you know, my fiance, Paula knows certain [01:41:00] signs. No, I work with now as well as, uh, he's my therapist. He knows certain signs. He'll text me and he'd be like, you need to take a bit of time off, uh, a lady that, that works very closely when knows things, you know, like she texted me this weekend being like, Um, cause my fiance had gone to cork to, to, uh, is it strange, but visit my mother and her they're very good friends.
[01:41:21] And, uh, she had told me basically that you're going to be alone. So you're probably going to work because that's my go-to thing when I'm alone I'll work. And she was like, take a bit of time to yourself please. Okay. So my, my, my appeal to you is, um, take it easy on yourself, man. You know, like what, what age are you?
[01:41:46] 26. 26? Yeah. Okay. You still have expectations for yourself. Okay. I've heard you say recently that you're, you, you, um, met about back in the senior panel and you know, you've still have aspirations, absolutely go after them. But [01:42:00] if you can learn to detach yourself worth from that, um, and learn that you are a person who is living with something that some of those older players don't have.
[01:42:11] Um, and sometimes we hold ourselves to this kind of benchmark that is, you know, we compare ourselves to other people, you know, guy over there probably doesn't have depression not go over there probably has anxiety. He's dealing with something different than you can use to look at life a little bit different.
[01:42:28] Um, but just remember to be kind to yourself, remember what the signs are, I guess, you know, you're, you're, you're three or four years younger than me, but a lot's happened in three or four years for me. I wouldn't, if you had spoken to me at 26, I would have been a lot further behind where you are, you know, you wouldn't have been intelligent, able to speak about it.
[01:42:48] Um, and I certainly wouldn't be going on podcasts talking about it cause I wasn't talking to anyone about it. Um, so I, I am very conscious of. Where we're at with time-wise Ron and I are 40, you know, [01:43:00] and w this is flown. Okay. And I think we could do another podcast, um, in itself just about your time in St.
[01:43:06] Pat's and, and the, the young adult program and the various things. So I would encourage people if you haven't gotten off of this conversation, um, to go find Shane on, on social media, or, um, you know, perhaps he's going to be speaking into the van for you or something like that, but get the book. Okay. Get that book, buy the book.
[01:43:25] If you've never read it, put it on your shelf, and someday you will pick it up. You will need to read. Um, we, we always like to close off the show, Shane with them, so they call the quickfire round. Totally. And it's 10 questions and you get five seconds to answer each one. And there are three that are always bespoke to you.
[01:43:41] Okay. We just like to end on a, kind of a higher note, I guess, um, and seven that are kind of general. Uh, we're starting to recognize some patterns from, from the seven general ones actually. And so it'll be interesting to see what, you know, a year of this or two years of this we'll come back with. We might be able to codify it and get some, um, some cool patterns.
[01:44:00] [01:44:00] So you ready?
[01:44:02] Shane: [01:44:02] I think so. Hesitantly
[01:44:08] Chris: [01:44:08] 10 questions. Come on. Five seconds on the clock. We only know hesitating. Y'all need quick fire
[01:44:14] Shane: [01:44:14] questions. Come on,
[01:44:16] Chris: [01:44:16] pick up the bags. Just whatever comes to your head. All right. So don't, don't be, um, uh, you know,
[01:44:23] thrown
[01:44:23] Chris: [01:44:23] off by any of the questions. Just answer whatever the hell it comes to your head. There's no smart answer.
[01:44:26] No right answer. It's just whatever. What's your head. Okay. Here we go. Question one. What is your favorite sporting achievement
[01:44:36] Shane: [01:44:36] secrets in 2020. Okay.
[01:44:40] Chris: [01:44:40] That's the college one though? Yep. Yep. Okay, but by the way, I know fuck all about sports. So you haven't noticed this yet. I don't know anything about GA, but a question to that favorite pair of boots you've ever owned at cope
[01:44:54] Shane: [01:44:54] on the ALS.
[01:44:55] Chris: [01:44:55] I know if you want to say it. Wait, what did the captors love Kopelman? Yes. It's the letter or something. Is it [01:45:00] kangaroo letter?
[01:45:02] Shane: [01:45:02] The finest piece that lady you'll ever find around.
[01:45:05] Chris: [01:45:05] Question three. Um, this is a funny one. I don't know if other people have picked up on this, but two of your best friends have names that are the same as two Simpson's characters.
[01:45:14] Who are they? Carla. Mo I don't know if anyone else has said that to you, but it was the first thing I picked up when I, what I, uh, I saw their name. They always pick open the, he didn't add, didn't pick a pick open to cow.
[01:45:25] Shane: [01:45:25] That's actually interesting. I'm gonna say it. Doesn't say
[01:45:28] Chris: [01:45:28] question four, named something weird or absurd that you love.
[01:45:33] Shane: [01:45:33] Carly Rae Jepsen. I don't alter music. Pretty good form factor. I know he's quick. Fly around with them. Wait, let me say this, this funny story with Tom. It was a weird game at uncork and we're walking out into Patriot for headphones on and you know, people probably as the M and M Drake, my sister's like, I wonder what he's listened to.
[01:45:50] They asked me after the match, I was like Carly Rae Jepsen. Call me
[01:45:56] Chris: [01:45:56] once in a good mood. Doesn't matter. [01:46:00] Question five, um, name something you couldn't live without
[01:46:04] Shane: [01:46:04] family.
[01:46:06] Chris: [01:46:06] Answer question six. If you were the last person on earth, what would you still do? Wrong? Question seven. If you could broadcast a message to everyone on earth, what would it be? Talk pretty good. Question.
[01:46:22] Eight. What advice should young people ignore
[01:46:26] Shane: [01:46:26] opinion on voters?
[01:46:28] Chris: [01:46:28] Yeah. Question nine. If you feel overwhelmed, what would you instinctively do? Talk. Or run question 10, finish this sentence at the end of the day, it all comes down. Yeah. To
[01:46:42] Shane: [01:46:42] fulfillment.
[01:46:44] Chris: [01:46:44] Very good. Okay. Shane Cardi, I need you to, uh, plug whatever you want to plug, um, your socials, your book, whatever I keep forgetting.
[01:46:51] This was the first time I've remembered for a guest. So, uh, tell us where to find you.
[01:46:56] Shane: [01:46:56] Oh gosh, for me, uh, Instagram S underscore Carthy owner [01:47:00] score, Twitter and S owner score Carthy eighth and, and yeah, LinkedIn just named Shane Carti. Nothing wasn't too, too, too away from that. Um, and then on the side of the street, if you want book me
[01:47:14] Chris: [01:47:14] for a talk, where w where can I find your book?
[01:47:16] Amazon I'll go
[01:47:17] Shane: [01:47:17] bookshops Easton's. Um, and yeah, definitely the despair behind the glory, my journey back from the edge yet.
[01:47:24] Chris: [01:47:24] Brilliant buyers buy local. And this has been Shan character. This is the one DMC podcast, Shane, thank you very much for, for everything. Um, for coming on for writing the book for, for being vulnerable, for giving the talks, uh, for doing what you're doing.
[01:47:38] Um, and I hope we get to meet up in person at some point.
[01:47:41] Shane: [01:47:41] Absolutely.
[01:47:45] Jump out the bed I got.
[01:47:51] This has been episode nine of the one DMC podcast. Thank you all so much for listening and a huge thanks to Shane as well for coming on and telling your story. If you want to catch up with us outside of podcast [01:48:00] world, you can check us out on Instagram at windy MC podcast, or you can check out our website@wwwdotonedmcpodcast.com.
[01:48:07] That's all for most. Today, we will see you next week with a brand new episode until then look after yourself, say safe, and we will see you then peace out. Bye-bye.
