Disclaimer
Transcripts may (read: definitely will) contain typos. We use software to transcribe the show and American artificial intelligence is apparently not intelligent enough to understand the Irish accent; go figure!
In time, if people read these, we'll have them fully proof read by human intelligence and corrected for grammar and syntax.
_________
[00:00:00] Chris: [00:00:00] Hey everyone, Chris here, I listened to the one DMC podcast, a weekly show where a young guy who's battling with depression, his actual psychotherapist under guest, your deep and meaningful conversations about the mind, the body and everything in between. I can never quite put my finger on why, but I've had a mind fascinated with a class of drugs called psychedelics.
[00:00:19] Since I was a teenager. My favorite TV shows usually involve drug cartels. Some of my favorite books are steep and drug culture. And I love the idea of hippies in the 1960s, California, just vibing about peace and infinite consciousness, Hunter Thompson, Alice Huxley, and Tom Wolf opened my mind. And if the door's perception unlocked.
[00:00:37] Someday. I might have to open them how to research these drugs. Potential effects of my depression. Psychedelics are in a class of their own. As far as drugs go, they're less about recreation and more about recreating Stanislav Grof one of the founders of trans person psychology once said psychedelics would be for psychiatry with a microscope is for biology.
[00:00:55] And a telescope is for astronomy. Today's episode is less tie dye [00:01:00] and electric Kool-Aid and lab coats and questionnaires. I apologize in advance that emotion picking Merry pranksters who are tuning. It prompts you to get something from this too, but we only mentioned love once or twice folks still.
[00:01:12] There's something romantic about the Renaissance that psychedelics are going through. It's the planet now, ready to turn on tune in and drop out if mystical life-altering experiences and oceanic bonuses are walked in store for people who had previously been depressed and trapped in their minds. When the focus is on repairative remediation strategy for mental health disorder.
[00:01:31] Excuse my French. For me, speaking with today's guest was a privilege. Respecting research scientist will take a call from somebody looking for further information about psilocybin, unless he had a podcast to act as a Trojan horse to hide his childlike enthusiasm science. Okay. For me, I do have a podcast.
[00:01:50] Luckily for you, Dr. John caddy obliged my invitation and you're about to take a wild ride to the history, the application and the burgeoning scientific research around psychedelics. [00:02:00] John is an aspire fellow in psychiatry and telling university hospital and the psychiatry lecture in Trinity college, Dublin.
[00:02:06] Just a self investigator on the compass pathway psilocybin for treatment resistant depression trials and just an on-road gentlemen. I think that the media got hold of John. He'd be a great advocate for general science. He speaks well. He exudes passion for his work, and you can just tell he's restraining himself like any good scientist would what the evidence of stocking off for the treatment of depression would set aside.
[00:02:26] But I want this podcast to be a place where people can look at life, the mind and the body in an objective way. If you're worried about the very word drug, I sense that your conditioning is restraining you in many ways. Do you drink coffee? Whether the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders, the DSM-V now includes caffeine withdrawal.
[00:02:47] Why am I telling you this in 20 years? And this slimy politics gets in the way as Richard Nixon did in 1960s, America, you can bet your ass that siliciden MTMA at SD Iowasca and many more quote, unquote drugs [00:03:00] will be household names as part of the treatments for trauma, the spectrum of mental illnesses on palliative care he's plants have been used for thousands of years, different forms of ceremony.
[00:03:11] I was pleased throw away our preconceived notions and labels and allow science to explain why come on. People buy the ticket, take the ride and listen. As we explored a future of medicine, PS, if you liked this episode, when I tell us by leaving a lovely review on Apple podcasts or telling your friends to listen, PPS, we in no way advocates for the illicit use of drugs in a recreational capacity, capacity, capacity, stay safe, kids.
[00:03:40] Enjoy the episode,
[00:03:41]
[00:03:41] Dr. John Kelly. How are you? Welcome to the one DMC podcast. Thank you very much, first and foremost for coming on and giving us your time. I know you're very busy with the trials, et cetera that are going on at the moment. Um, but I just wanted to say, thanks. Thanks for coming on first and foremost.
[00:03:59] John: [00:03:59] Yeah.
[00:04:00] [00:03:59] Thanks for having me on Chris and looking forward to our conversation.
[00:04:04] Chris: [00:04:04] I cannot tell you how excited I am for this conversation. You know, just saying before we started this, when we decided to do, um, the one, the MC podcast, you know, it was kind of last summer when we, um, had this, uh, idea for the show. And I, I spoke to Nolan who was my actual actual therapist.
[00:04:22] Um, You know, I had said to Nolan, a number of occasions that I've been reading about, um, you know, this Renaissance quote-unquote, that's happening with psychedelic research. Um, and I was telling him that I'm, I know I'm the type of person that I will never do anything or try anything unless I have, um, you know, found conclusive evidence that it's beneficial, um, are worthwhile.
[00:04:45] And I'm also a bit of a spiritual person. And, uh, you know, I've been doing a bunch of reading on this topic and, you know, watching as much as I can in terms of documentaries, et cetera. And it's fascinating to me. Like, I, I mean, I, I'm more excited [00:05:00] for this episode that I have been for possibly anything I've done in the past year or two.
[00:05:04] So that would speak to, um, how much I'm interested in this topic. But before we dive into the clinical trials themselves and what you do and how you do it, um, I'd like to maybe ask you about, uh, Psychedelics in general, you know, uh, what is a psychedelic watch, separates it from another drug are, um, you know, uh, something you can pick up in the pharmacy.
[00:05:32] And maybe we can speak a little bit about the history too. So, but first and foremost, watch this look at that, like,
[00:05:39] John: [00:05:39] sure. So psychedelics are compounds that reliably alter perception thought and emotion that would ordinarily be experienced outside, like a dream state or religious exaltation. And they tend to do this in a dose dependent. [00:06:00] Matter and really what we're focusing on today for the most part, I would imagine would be classical psychedelics and they can be subdivided into various categories.
[00:06:11] One category is in Dlamini, that would be siliciden or dimethyltryptamine DMT. Another category would be fennel Alcalay means, and that would be sort of masculine. And third broad category would be semi-synthetic early liens. That would be LSD. And really most of them primarily act on the serotonin system.
[00:06:38] And it appears that a subset. Of the serotonin receptors called the serotonin two, a receptors are pivotal in producing the consciousness altering effects of psychedelics. And these serotonin two, a receptors are predominantly, uh, found in the, in the cortex and to get, you know, the [00:07:00] pyramidal cells of, of, of layer five and the cortex, if one gets technical about it, but they're found other places as well.
[00:07:07] And, uh, I suppose that would be, you know, a broad take on, on what psychedelics are under the categorizations.
[00:07:19] Chris: [00:07:19] Very interesting. That quite complicated. Um, the serotonin is a neurotransmitter, correct? It's effectively. Um, they call it the, the, the happiness, um, hormonal chemical. I think a serotonin is what, um, accessorize are also responsible for.
[00:07:40] Um, basically, uh, it's is arise, are, uh, given to people to, uh, affect their serotonin. Correct. So like a psychedelic is in the same category, they're in a kind of a, uh, to a large extent as, um, you know, the accessorize that are classically given to people [00:08:00] with depression or anxiety. Correct.
[00:08:05] John: [00:08:05] Yeah, serotonin is a neurotransmitter.
[00:08:08] It has quite a lot of functions, mood, and anxiety, uh, amongst other, the appetite, uh, sorts of the wide range of functions and yes, serotonin selective re-uptake inhibitors essentially block the serotonin transporter and, and that leads to more serotonin at the side between the sign-ups. So it works in a slightly different way to the classical psychedelics, which activate their set five HD two way, but there are definite overlap between the two, uh, the two, two.
[00:08:44] Sort of broad categories of, of, of, uh, of compounds. Yeah. And I know that we'll get into it, but the, the clinical trial, uh, that we're doing is looking at the effect of silicide and in conjunction with the SSRI. [00:09:00] So to figure out the efficacy and safety of that approach. And that's never really been tested at, uh, with high methodological rigor before.
[00:09:11] So that's very much a pilot study that we're looking at. There's a center in Dublin and there's also a center in San Diego, and we're looking to get 20 participants in total through that. Uh, that's a, it's a compass pathway study. And the theory there would be potentially does this SSRI by the mechanisms we discussed blunt, the effect of psilocybin therapy.
[00:09:42] And that's a very important practical question for the field to, to grapple with, as this therapy moves out beyond phase two into hopefully phase three trials, and also can accessorize safely be given with psilocybin [00:10:00] therapy. Cause psychedelics are quite safe from a physiological point of view, but they, what a blood pressure.
[00:10:05] So we test for people's blood pressure beforehand. And during this particular trial participants, blood pressure gets monitored throughout the, the eight hours or so of dosing day. So that's, that's um, that's, um, you know, an interesting and important study, I think.
[00:10:26] Chris: [00:10:26] Absolutely. Um, and I really want to get into the kind of granularities of the trials, um, you know, dosing set and setting, um, and all of the pieces that go together to put the puzzle in place, um, of these clinical trials and, you know, what really were, or what you guys are looking for from it as a pharmacological, or is it about, is experiential?
[00:10:47] You know, there's, there's, I've never seen a research paper before it, it has mentioned the word mystical. And I see it mentioned a lot in, um, in the research around this and consciousness and, and all stuff. That's very, let's [00:11:00] say ineffable, you know what I want to perhaps look at this on a, kind of a more macro level, you know, psychedelics it, isn't a new thing, you know, um, I think anesthesia, synthetic compound, uh, but it's, you know, uh, fifties and sixties, I think Albert Hoffman, um, accidentally stumbled on NSD, were looking for some blood circulation drug, um, and, you know, went into his famous cycle home from his lab.
[00:11:25] Um, and I think they, they formed NSD 50 and then that kind of, they propagate it out across the planet. Then people like Timothy Leary and, uh, you know, public enemy, number one in America started this kind of, uh, war let's say in the fifties and sixties, um, with the American government, but even, uh, you know, before that, you know, the antecedents of that Renaissance or that initial kind of offspring in, in studies and trials, these have been around for millennia.
[00:11:54] Um, I could stand corrected for that. You know, I read a book recently called the immortality key. Um, if [00:12:00] anyone wants to watch the guy who wrote it, I can't, I can't pronounce his name, but he he's on, um, an episode of Joe Rogan as well. And it, it was incredible. Like completely fascinating, but there was this place hallucis that, you know, the Greeks enrollments used to go to people like Plato America's rallies and, um, you know, contemporary lives of their age went to displace for these, um, you know, rituals that were done to expand that their mind and, you know, effectively, you know, that their terminology was to, to, you know, uh, she got her or experienced the multi-verse or whatever, but it has been around for millennia.
[00:12:38] So, um, you know, maybe we can speak a little bit about, uh, the history of psychedelics, you know, where they come from their application in general society. And then maybe about that kind of upsurge in the fifties and sixties of, um, psychedelic research.
[00:12:55] John: [00:12:55] Sure. Yeah, well, possibly the earliest records date back [00:13:00] to 5,700 years ago, give or take.
[00:13:04] So, I mean, that's, it's possible that they were used before that as well in a ceremonial settings. And I suppose there are, you know, recent discoveries using sort of mass spectrometry and they're finding artifacts. And then they're also finding residues of siliciden and citizen or other plants on these, uh, artifacts.
[00:13:29] So that's quite, uh, quite interesting. So there's definitely a, a history there there's some sort of controversy over how frequently it was used and, and what exact context, but it was definitely used by our ancestors. So there is some degree of link to the past and, and this sort of, I guess, human need for transcendence of some.
[00:13:51] Description, and it is quite interesting to ponder what they were transcending and, and their conceptualizations of it compared to now, when [00:14:00] we're sort of going into the scientific model and perhaps thinking of it more in terms of, you know, multi level, uh, mechanisms across serotonin, but across a glutamate across the network level, across all manifesting as, you know, subjective experience and potential psychological transformation.
[00:14:21] So, I mean, it is quite remarkable and yeah, I mean, LSD first synthesize 1938, I believe. And then thereafter he revisited it. Uh, he also said the size that silicide, but that was marketed as well. And then as you say, Timothy Leary and the other guy probably politicized too much. And then there was a shutdown on the, on the whole research endeavor, perhaps bar a few small places, but really.
[00:14:49] Pretty well, shut down and then circa, you know, uh, 2006, the Johns Hopkins kind of people relaunched it [00:15:00] again. It was initially used in healthy controls and then in people with cancer diagnosis, and then I'm sure we'll come to it. But, uh, then Carhart Harris and the Imperial institution did the landmark study in the Lancet looking at treatment resistant depression.
[00:15:19] So, um, yeah, and, and, and there are many, many ongoing studies across a whole range of conditions, uh, that are currently
[00:15:31] Chris: [00:15:31] ongoing. And a very positive, you know, I think I want people to understand that this is not a nascent to science, you know, in the fifties and sixties, there was over a thousand studies. I believe Don on this.
[00:15:41] And I mentioned Timothy Leary because I'm public enemy number one, because Tim Peter was a Harvard professor who stumbled across this stuff. You know, people like Aldous, Huxley, Timothy Leary, um, you know, Gordon Wasson. Um, and you know, there's a lot of people around, um, during that time that, you know, I won't say [00:16:00] stumbled across this, but came across, uh, things like LSD set aside and et cetera, stuff that hadn't been used for millennia and realized, Oh my God, there's an application here to, um, the mind and to opening up people's consciousness, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:16:13] And you know, yes, Tim Siri sometimes, um, his infamy infamy. Precedes him because he did politicize it. And he went into this kind of war with, with, uh, Nixon, uh, where, you know, Nixon wanted people to fight in his Wars. Um, you know, he wants people to go to Vietnam, et cetera. And there was all these people, um, you know, like, uh Halfman and leery, um, uh, and you know, Washington and people who were kind of, uh, Trying to espouse the use of these quote unquote drugs to open up people's mind and to stop them fighting the Wars and stopped and working for your corporations.
[00:16:51] Um, and to start thinking more environmentally, um, and there was a very large effort to stop them, you know? Um, and there was, there was [00:17:00] people using this, um, you know, in the, in America at the time as well. Um, and to say, and, and government bodies were trying to, um, make it into a, uh, a weapon of war and they were trying to figure out ways to, um, you know, control the mind and all ultra stuff.
[00:17:14] This isn't fiction. This is fact, um, so like the reason people call it a Renaissance now is because there was so much positive, um, uh, results during that time, uh, for our application for therapy, et cetera, with things like MGMA, as well as the LSD psilocybin. Um, I think there ketamine is the first one that becoming pharmacological.
[00:17:36] Um, but I think to be honest with you, my opinions they're fucking it off, but, um, you know, th we've all been around for a while. You know, people have been using them, you know, shamanistic CLI and with, um, people chaperoning them forever millennia, you know, then you get to the fifties and sixties and they start to investigate this from a, you know, using our scientific, you know, um, westernized, intellectual hat, uh, and the results were very positive.
[00:17:59] Um, and [00:18:00] then they were, you know, in effect bastardized and demonized by, um, you know, this kind of political war that went on. Um, and Timmy theory is very, very infamous around this whole thing, which is the reason I bring him up, you know, think about that Harvard professor, you know, falls in love with this idea.
[00:18:15] He, new psychologist falls in love with this idea of using this and then applying it to the masses, um, to open up their minds and our consciousness and, you know, in effect. Slow down Wars and, you know, soul down in people's lives. And then it becomes demonized. You know, like I think the, the, even the word psychedelic, um, comes from from Aldous Huxley, I think, you know, uh, opening the doors to perception the kind of, uh, pulling accomplice, you know, the fathom hail or goal angelic, just take a little psychedelic, you know, psychedelic means mind manifesting the, the Greek etymology of the words is mind manifested.
[00:18:47] Uh, but thank you for that. And I think the history is really important because it brings us to today. And the reason why, like it took to perhaps 2006 with, you know, perhaps maps in American, the Johns Hopkins [00:19:00] studies and, um, you know, compass pathways, uh, who I believe is behind the trials that you are working on, who are a public company for profit, I believe.
[00:19:10] Um, But the, they are at the forefront of this Renaissance. Um, and I like the word Renaissance, um, because it's has positive connotations and I believe that much of the results that are coming from the trials are positive. So I'd like to get into the trials themselves and, um, effectively what you are doing at the moment.
[00:19:32] You know, what is happening in, in Tyler hospital, where you're conducting these trials?
[00:19:37] John: [00:19:37] Sure. I'm Chris justice, before I get onto that. Yeah. There was so many studies in the, in the, in the fifties and sixties and you're right. There was a positive therapeutic indication for people with depression and anxiety and neurosis.
[00:19:52] So they had various different labels for it back then. And also, conversely, not [00:20:00] so useful for people with psychosis. And then I guess, you know, moving forward until today, I mean, that's what we, we still would gather. And yeah, compass pathways are, are very interested in, in treatment resistant depression and they have recently gone public at an astronomical price.
[00:20:22] And, uh, and I suppose on the ground, just to give you some sort of timeframe, I mean, Almost to the day, two years ago, seven tomorrow, two years ago, we had our first dosing in Tyler hospital and that was for the first trial. So that trial is obviously global and it's basically 18 weeks. And people get either a once off dose of a one milligram or a 10 milligram or a 25 milligram dose of psilocybin, obviously in the context of psychological support.
[00:21:00] [00:21:00] So people would have between three and four preparatory sessions with their psychologists at Lisa work and Christine Brennan, and also would make me in the study coordinator only Baker on numerous occasions before the dosing to do various questionnaires, almost on a weekly basis. And then people would come in the day before dosing and they'd come in, obviously the, for the day of those in the day after dosing.
[00:21:27] And then for, for any would tend to 12 weeks almost thereafter, uh, for follow-up. Uh, visits, uh, both with myself, Annie and the psychologists as well. So there's quite a lot to the study. We ask quite a lot of our participants and also for that study, they come off their medications at a rate that is acceptable to them.
[00:21:58] So I would also like to [00:22:00] thank them because they have put in the hard yards and they. I like this concept of citizen scientists. And I liked certainly this concept of citizen science is in this domain as well. And, uh, you know, obviously the effects have been variable because it's double-blind so they don't know what those they're going to get.
[00:22:21] We don't know what their dose is. And we may never know. I mean, I'd like to find out down the line, cause I think it would help the team into the future to optimize, uh, our approach. But, um, you know, that's it in a, in a nutshell, I suppose we can, we can talk about dosing days as well. If you like.
[00:22:43] Chris: [00:22:43] Yes. I am interested in this dosing because I read Michael Pollan's book, how to change your mind.
[00:22:49] And, um, yeah, so you, you guys have is a five, 10 and 25 milligrams or micrograms
[00:22:58] John: [00:22:58] at one 10 and [00:23:00] 25.
[00:23:02] Chris: [00:23:02] Is he, he took, uh, okay. So I think in the Johns Hopkins studies, they take four grams and he took, uh, he did it, um, let's say outside the confinements of, um, a lab, but albeit with, um, a lady that, uh, you know, chaperoned him through the experience.
[00:23:19] And I, I think, you know, had been involved in that area and he took four grams. So I wanted to ask why the difference stateside and in Ireland is this down to, you know, regulation, uh, and you know, the allowances for these trials for, for compass, or is there a reasoning behind the different dosing?
[00:23:41] John: [00:23:41] Oh, yeah.
[00:23:41] So just to clarify that this is delivered in sort of capsules. So just to give you an idea of the rough equivalent. So 25 milligrams of the capsule would be in and around 3.5, 3.75 of say a dried, uh, [00:24:00] preparation of, of, of mushrooms, uh, where, so, so it's, it's it's it's it's, it's it's, it's a decent dose. Now, referring back to the Johns Hopkins.
[00:24:10] Yeah. They've used up the 30 milligrams, which is just shy of the five milligram Mark. So yeah, they pushed it up. Their recent depression study used. Yeah, yeah, not far off the heroic dose. Uh, they're they're a recent trial use 20 and 30. And, uh, so, and then, uh, Carhart Harris and the Imperial group, the initial trial use 10 and then seven, seven days later, 25 milligrams.
[00:24:39] So that will give you a, sort of a, an overall sort of dose range and, and rough equivalent to the, the, the, the magic mushrooms in a dried form.
[00:24:49] Chris: [00:24:49] That's fascinating. And then on, on dosing day, you know, um, patient a comes in, they've done the three or four days of, you know, [00:25:00] Therapy, um, or, you know, what you call, I think it's called paps.
[00:25:03] Like, so like psilocybin assisted psychology. I'm not sure if that's the correct application of that acronym, but they, they come in and then you, you call it a dosing day, which I think is kind of a funny name. Um, so they, they come in and you know, what I've read is that set being people's intention, um, and their priors coming into this, um, is very important, but setting is also very, very important.
[00:25:28] So I think, um, some of the statistics coming back from, I think there's one Johns Hopkins study with like 250 participants over over 16 years that shows that there's no psychological issues, less than 0.6% incidence rate of a negative psychological issue during, during the trial or afterwards. But there's quite a high, I think from surveys instance of what, you know, what I would call, excuse me, a bad trip.
[00:25:55] And uh, about a trip, you know, if you think about a situation where someone is at a concert and someone says I've [00:26:00] got some , um, you know, let's take them and they have this experience, um, and we can get into later about the actual experiment, experiential phenomenology of, of what happens during it, during the trip, or I don't, I don't think that's a scientific term that you guys use or you're allowed to use, but, um, can you talk a little bit about that set and setting and what happens on, on dosing day?
[00:26:24] John: [00:26:24] Sure. And I'm glad you brought that up. There are marked differences between the recreational use and the therapeutic use. And, and don't forget. I mean, they're, they're, they're, they're highly powerful compounds and we're using them in a very supported and controlled environment, very cognizant of context, which is the set and setting.
[00:26:49] And we have a dedicated psilocybin room, both in a sheaf house or community mental health unit beside the Tyler hospital and also one out in Blessington as well. And [00:27:00] that's set up really sort of, so we can sort of induce a as, as pleasant and experience as, as possible. And I guess. Also back to your point with the, with the different rates of psychological distress, yet there's about a 0.9% rate of, of mild psychological distress, which is transient and born out by the, that that particular study.
[00:27:31] Whereas in recreational use, it was about 7.6%. So quite a marked different. So if you screen people adequately and if you prepare people adequately, you're, you're dramatically reducing, uh, you know, risk and, uh, and high levels of psychological distress. Now experiencing some anxiety, which has mainly transient is.
[00:27:59] Pretty much [00:28:00] a part of it like that's to be, to be expected. And then this concept of a, of a bad trip, which we're meant to be calling a challenging experience. Um, now that isn't always a bad thing because there in lies an opportunity to perhaps reprocess things or, or, or gain insights. And that's why people would work with the therapist for the integration sessions after that experience and know that we'll come onto it.
[00:28:30] But yeah, there's a, there's a wide range of experience. People can have this quite marked individual variation and there are broad themes. And, um, I guess that the dosing day people come into us at nine o'clock. Uh, I meet the participants. We do some, uh, questionnaires, general chair checks, and he does general physiological checks.
[00:28:58] And then [00:29:00] into the psilocybin room where the person would get five cups. And again, uh, for that study, at least we don't know what people are getting, uh, and they're encouraged to lie down on, on the bed. They're encouraged to wear an eye mask and they're also, you know, they listened to a set playlist via headphones and, uh, Johns Hopkins, as you probably saw released there.
[00:29:26] Playlist to the public and encompass pathways have a other playlist that it's yeah, it's, it's, it's a, it's designed to take people on this. I don't know, for one of the veterans get their emotional journey or get people to really introspect on the changes or the potential changes that are happening. And the therapists, in fact, in that study, two therapists are in the room with the person for the, for the, the whole time.
[00:29:50] And people react different ways, but they're most, they're encouraged to go with their own experience and if they need sort of [00:30:00] grounding or help with marked anxiety, they can tap into the therapist. Um, there's also an option, you know, myself and Annie are in a different room and we've not had to do this, but if someone had got markedly distressed, um, you know, there'd be an option of, of, of a therapist.
[00:30:24] You know, anti anxiety, relaxation techniques didn't work. Uh, there were still highly, highly distressed. Well then there's an option of a, of a low dose Xanax type drug or something like that. Now we've never had to use that. Uh, but I suppose for some people that adds a level of reassurance, so it's, it's highly supported and highly controlled, and we encourage people to really.
[00:30:52] Go with it. Um, hopefully a lot of, hopefully we've built trust at that stage, but when they, [00:31:00] they, they experienced it that ready to go with it. And you've heard other people describe the different metaphors that can prop up. Like if there's a door, go through it. If there's a stairs climate, like, cause you're in the safest place we can possibly get.
[00:31:13] So you got to as much as you can and go with the experience, go in and through, as they say. And, um, uh, a guest that could last anywhere between six and eight hours could even last a bit longer. We've had people in their attempt 10 hours, for example. Um, and again, depending on dose, uh, that we ask people to have some, a loved one or a friend of some description, take people home the day after the dosing day, uh, just for an extra.
[00:31:50] Of sort of reassurance, uh, myself and Annie meet the participants. After a week, we go through scales, including the five [00:32:00] altars and dimensions of consciousness scale. So I get a pretty good idea of the experience the person has had or not had depending on dose. And then they're coming to us the next day and we, we go through the experience and then the therapist is go through to get a bit more detail as well.
[00:32:21] So that's kind of a rough overview of the, of the day,
[00:32:31] Noel: [00:32:31] John. Hi. Hi John Knoll here. Um, yeah, it it's, it's something that I find fascinating and, and the potential I was as a therapist, obviously, I, I kind of. I'm often looking for different tools, say to, to help clients, you know, just for instance, just get through a particular trauma that might've happened in childhood or in teenage years.
[00:32:51] You know, I notice there's, there's other instances where it's used used for, but that's just one example. Um, [00:33:00] the, just what regard to the trial and then say the, the, the, the patient or the client in the, in, in the trial, um, working with a therapist, would it be no, I'm not sure what, what you're able to say this, or how much details you have to give out.
[00:33:15] Would it be something that is the, the, the client would have historical kind of historically been working with the client or, sorry. Well, the client has been historically working with a therapist for a prolonged kind of time leading up to this, or is it kind of relatively new to the, is there a therapeutic relationship, relatively new.
[00:33:37] John: [00:33:37] Oh, in terms of the study, it would be pretty new. Like this isn't the same therapist that they've been seeing for, for example, years or what this is dedicated to the study. So yeah, it's, it's, it's a, it's a good point that it's a relatively short period of time and, and it's, um, it doesn't subscribe to any particular psychological [00:34:00] school.
[00:34:00] I feel like I know the other studies have used sort of a CBT model kind of rainbow therapy model. Others are kind of interested in acceptance commitment therapy model, uh, Roslyn Watson again in the UK is doing great work. And she has her, I believe her own model CE except connect and body, uh, model. And she's actually doing group work.
[00:34:23] So I think several people at the, at the same time, which is quite interesting to figure out like, do some people want to do it on their own. Do other people want to do it in a group? But, um, I suppose the model that is kind of being rolled out as a, as a, is a, is a generalized support model. It doesn't get into the complexities, but, you know, uh, relevance to you and your work down the line for perhaps, you know, comp flex, uh, sets of problems, uh, you might, uh, it might be an additional [00:35:00] tool, uh, that you might incorporate.
[00:35:02] So that's all yet to be played out, you know, into the sort of precise, personalized application of psychedelic therapy.
[00:35:11] Chris: [00:35:11] Yeah.
[00:35:11] Noel: [00:35:11] It's it's particularly in mind. And it was, it was something that you, you mentioned a few seconds, a few moments ago, you mentioned the word re processing. Um, and as I said, I would get to, there's lots of different kind of, as you mentioned, some of them CBT I'd be an integrated therapist, so I'd integrate lots of different therapies, um, CBT act, different kinds of techniques and skills to them.
[00:35:31] And. You know, and it's not just to myself, but something that I would come across with other therapists as well, they would be able to work with the client to unsuccessfully in some ways, reprocess different anxieties, be able to kind of park those anxieties where people, so they don't keep coming up.
[00:35:45] Then, you know, that have happened when they're 13. And then when they're 33, they don't keep coming up. But obviously like that. And you mentioned that in the trial, it's particularly for a treatment, uh, types of depression, particularly. One in [00:36:00] a therapeutic approach for that I would have in mind would be, um, EMDR, eye movement, desensitization, reprocessing, desensitization, and reprocessing, where they would look to rewire or literally in the name, uh, reprocess those things.
[00:36:14] And it's, that's where I would see its similarity that it does. There's very high success rate, particularly in PTSD with our technique. And that's why I was really interested and really excited to see another tool such as the possibility of these psychedelics being used, um, to, to do that. How have you come across EMDR and would you have kind of had that in mind, um, that if there are similarities between the two and that whole reprocessing part.
[00:36:46] John: [00:36:46] Yeah, I suppose the reprocessing. And it's also very interesting to map that back onto the neurobiology. I mean, most of the neuroplastic changes have been demonstrated in [00:37:00] animal models, but they're pretty convincing and you'll have heard the term, a cycle plastic surgeons that they can actually, within a very short period of time, we're talking hours increased signup to connections and perhaps increase, you know, You know, sales as well.
[00:37:21] So that's sort of lends itself to this sort of idea of use, as you've heard before a sort of therapeutic window and whereby psychologists can tap into that, I guess. Overlapping with EMDR type of stuff to, to reprocess certain, you know, constrained, uh, beliefs, constraint, priors, be it at the level of emotion, be at a level of thought or even at the level of, of behavior.
[00:37:50] So at the human level, there's obviously a gap between what we can find out at the role level with this sort of very fine [00:38:00] grain at neuroplastic changes and the neuroimaging, there's just a gap there. So we don't really know, although we studied from Johns Hopkins using magnetic resonance spectroscopy looked at glutamate and glutamate can lead to neuroplastic changes.
[00:38:16] So this concept of a, of a, sort of a plastic temporary plastic brain, for which that can be worked with. With the therapist, if you like to gain potentially new, new insights into, into things. Yeah, that's fascinating.
[00:38:35] Chris: [00:38:35] I just want to bring there's a plasticity down, down a level or two because, um, you know, I'm not a neuroscientist, um, and, uh, you know, neither is known or done.
[00:38:45] So like the best analogy I've heard for this repurposing and reprocessing. Um, so like human brains do something called BS in inference, which is like, we, we look at, uh, the world, um, through patterns. The world is very [00:39:00] complex and adaptive and you know, what we see as effectively pattern recognition. And we can, we infer from previous experiences how we should react or act in a certain situation.
[00:39:10] And, um, again, it's in Michael Pollan's book. I can't remember who specifically said it. Um, but they use the analogy of two analogies actually, but I love them both. One is a snow globe. You imagine shaking a snow globe and the snow globe, uh, you know, the inside of that is affecting your brain. Um, this neuro-plasticity, it doesn't actually mean your brain is plastic.
[00:39:30] It means that, uh, you can, you can cause, um, changes and new connections within your brain to occur. So under newer imaging, they can see that, um, you know, different parts of your brain begin to speak to each other that are, you know, probably an ominous or abnormal to your normal day-to-day thinking or how your brain would work.
[00:39:50] Um, but also new connections are formed and they, I, I'm not a hundred percent sure, but I don't think they actually know what these new connections are yet or what they could possibly lead to. But [00:40:00] imagine the snow globe is your mind. You shake the snow globe. Then it's settled. So the shaking is basically shaking of all your prayers, all of your experiences, the things that you have built up over your lifetime, the, um, you know, w you know, I suffered with depression.
[00:40:15] So that would mean that I've, I've developed a style of thinking or a way to process the world that leads to excessive rumination and gets me to, you know, quite dark places. I've become very negative and, um, pessimistic, et cetera. So I just want to preface this as well. I've never taken psychedelics. So I'm, I'm looking at this periodic from a theoretical perspective.
[00:40:36] The reason I want to talk to John and talk to many more people, because eventually I might go somewhere where it's legal and do this. If I believe that it has, you know, positive applications for someone like me with depression. Um, but imagine snaking my head as a snow globe, all of the patterns that I've built up, and then allowing you to settle.
[00:40:54] And forming new inferences and, and looking at the world in a new way. Um, you know, quite [00:41:00] possibly the other one was, and this is my favorite. If you think about the brain as, um, like a ski slope. Okay. And if anyone's ever been skiing, you know, that, you know, beyond like nine or 10 in the morning, the slopes are completely tracked out, which means there's all these tracks from people's skis and snowboards that have gone down them.
[00:41:19] And, um, taking psychedelics has been, has been, um, Carla too, if there's a fresh dump of snow comes on to that track. Okay. You form, um, new tracks and these tracks effectively are your thought processes. So the brain likes to use what I call the eristics. It's like the path of least resistance. They want to go down the path that everyone is taken before.
[00:41:42] All of the thoughts you've had before, they don't want to solve hard problems. They want to use the inferences from your past decision-making wins or losses. Okay. And you take, the psychedelics is a fresh dump of snow and it allows the brain to form new paths. It's like getting a fresh dump APOE when you, you get to [00:42:00] go, go ski that.
[00:42:02] But, uh, I just, I want to bring it back a little bit because I know it's very hard to understand there's some of the terminology that we're using. It is quite scientific and, you know, always struggled with it sometimes. Definitely. But I wanted to ask with respect to the actual trials themselves and the actual, um, psilocybin, uh, what is the toxic dose of psilocybin?
[00:42:21] You know, how much do you have to give to someone, um, to, um, in effect, uh, kill them.
[00:42:29] John: [00:42:29] That is a very good point. I said, Chris, I don't have a precise figure, but it's monstrous stills. Uh, because physiologically it's, it's, it's quite safe bar. As I mentioned, the transient increase in blood pressure, perhaps. So it's a monstrous stills. It's sits, it's something that's way off the chart. So it's, it's unlikely to, to, you know, even an overdose, you'd have to be taken massive quantities for it to have major [00:43:00] effects, uh, on you.
[00:43:02] So in that regard, these are far more safe than other, uh, shall we say compounds that people use.
[00:43:12] Chris: [00:43:12] Yeah. Interesting. I think the, the, the scientific terminology is LD 50, and I think I've read before that there are many, many drugs that even things like caffeine, et cetera, that you can more readily overdose on.
[00:43:23] Then these, um, these psilocybin, in fact, I don't, I don't have much, um, research done on, on NSD and, um, I began et cetera, et cetera, but I also want to ask you, you know, plain out, is it addictive?
[00:43:39] John: [00:43:39] It's not addictive. I've just, as you say, ibogaine. Yeah, I'm against probably a bit more. Cardiotoxic not typically a classmate as a, as a, as a classical psychedelics, but, uh, somewhat cardiotoxic, uh, in terms of addiction, no animal data is pretty clear on that. And really the human data thus far is fairly clear [00:44:00] on that as well.
[00:44:00] You don't see the company. Passivity to, to take more and more of a, uh, it's just not there. Once someone's had a experience, they, uh, they tend to, they tend to be very tired, but they, they, they tend not to seek it out immediately, you know? So it's, it's not like the, the, you know, cocaine where rats would be passing the cocaine lever almost to the point of, uh, for going other physiological drive.
[00:44:32] So, yeah, we just don't see that in, in psychedelics and I predict we're, we're not going to see that. It's just doesn't seem to be a part of it.
[00:44:44] Dan: [00:44:44] I know what you said there, John, sorry that, you know, it would be like an astronomical amount to cause some sort of fatality. Uh, but, um, I know there was some sort of, uh, I don't know if you want to call it a scientific study, but I know a scientist mentioned that they, they worked out, you know, something like marijuana, which is [00:45:00] traditionally taught to be completely non-lethal.
[00:45:02] Um, and it's kind of almost hard to be impossible to overdose on. Um, but I think so there was a, there was a, there was a figure put out, uh, I think last year in the media that they said that it would take 1500 pounds. Of marijuana ingested within 15 minutes to kill someone. So do you, do you think that, you know, is that amount that you're referring to like an astronomical amount?
[00:45:25] Is that something similar, like, say for example, dried mushrooms, would it be somewhere in that region that it would be like an impossible event to ingest, to
[00:45:32] Noel: [00:45:32] kill someone?
[00:45:36] John: [00:45:36] That's a great question. I just want to wind the back of it. I've done even advocated recreational use of any of these substances,
[00:45:46] what advice I've tried to give to, to cost of damage. So, yeah, it's a big, it's a big dumper. Yeah.
[00:45:54] Dan: [00:45:54] See my, sorry. My role here is to ask silly questions at times.
[00:45:59] Chris: [00:45:59] Oh, that's [00:46:00] good. People need to understand on, on all fronts, uh, you know, Let's not kid ourselves, people in, in, um, uh, you know, outside of laboratories all over the world have been ingesting these things for a very long time.
[00:46:15] Okay. Um, so, you know, I don't want it, people listening here to be like, Oh, you know, Chris was being overly positive. I've never taking down things, but I'm just reading the papers. I'm reading, what's coming back and speaking to people like John and trying to understand what the hell is going on here. You know, they, they have, um, given this, you have given psilocybin breakthrough status, which means, um, uh, you know, you go through FDA trials in America.
[00:46:38] And I think they're, they're at a phase two trials and it's it, the, the statistics and the data that going back from the studies that people are doing is so. Um, interesting and positive that they give it this breakthrough status, meaning that, uh, essentially, uh, the drugs, the pharmacological drugs that are in use currently, this [00:47:00] is, um, uh, more positive than them.
[00:47:02] And in such a way that they're like Jesus Christ, this stuff, um, that the data is, is overwhelming, but there's obviously problems like I've, I've maybe you could speak to this, John I've I've read about something called a hallucinogen persisting perception disorder, or that I get that. Right. And where we're small core to people.
[00:47:19] That's right. Yeah. Yeah. To continue to loosen it.
[00:47:26] John: [00:47:26] Yeah, I suppose that. Sure. The first thing to say about that is it's exceptionally rare and it's seems that people with preexisting sort of perceptual changes or alterations are at greater risk of it. However, that is one thing that these large scale clinical trials will have to look at and investigate very meticulously to see what is the actual rate, because we just don't have the firm data on that.
[00:47:59] Yes. [00:48:00] So that is, um, a potential. Rare risk. And, and just to echo kind of perhaps what we were saying before, but definitely people with any sort of psychosis spectrum disorders or, or even family history of psychosis or, or people with sort of bipolar disorder, the manic conditions should stay. I mean, we screen people for those, but people should definitely stay way, way away from these type of, of, uh, compounds.
[00:48:36] Chris: [00:48:36] Yeah. That's a very important point. You know, like everywhere I've looked, people say the same thing, whether it's in the science community or the fucking B-roll community, whatever, you know, I've been on the forums, I've read the stuff. Um, you have, uh, you know, perhaps psychotic disorders are, if you're in a very bad place mentally.
[00:48:58] Okay. Let's [00:49:00] say you're suffering a little mood or depression for a very long time. This is what I said earlier. Set and setting seems to be extremely important. Um, you know, the priors that you bring into this to affect, um, the results like I gave the guys an analogy earlier, like if you imagine a situation you're at a gig and you've never heard of, um, uh, uh, physical therapy before, you've never heard of a physio.
[00:49:24] Okay. So you go to a gig and someone says, Oh, you're going to have to get this Vizio thing that you're saying, Oh, I have a pain in my leg. And they're like, Oh, you should try this physio thing. And they bring over this person and the person loves you down on the ground and they start massaging your leg.
[00:49:38] They're like, Jesus Christ. This really hurts. Okay. You're going to have a terrible experience. So the sat and setting matters for that. Also, when you go to a physio, you go, Oh, I have a knot in my leg. And the physio will say, this is going to hurt for a little while, but. Um, it leaves off and it'll get much, much better.
[00:49:53] I would imagine not having taken this stuff. And I'm genuinely telling people that I've not taken this stuff. I have taken other drugs. I'm willing [00:50:00] to admit it, but I've not taken psychedelics because I want to do as much research as I can to understand it first. So I'm coming at this purely from a theoretical perspective, but you have to imagine that going into this, you need to be in the right frame of mind that every everything I've read and everything I've seen speaks to this idea, that setting setting are very important.
[00:50:20] It's recreationally. These can go well, but all of the bad trips people seem to be having, um, seem to be from, um, taking these in recreational settings. It's very low incidence. Like we spoke to earlier of this in, in the clinical trials. And I wanted to ask you to something that has been on my mind for awhile.
[00:50:36] Uh, John, and it's around the, the actual. Studies itself. Okay. So I find it very interesting that, you know, even the idea of set and setting and, you know, bringing people in and, and bringing through therapy and putting music on, and the masculine and stuff is kind of transposing things, bringing you from non-scientific realm into the kind of scientific realm and adding them as, as variables to the equation.
[00:50:58] But how do you, when you're, [00:51:00] when you're doing this study okay. And someone, and they do this, I assume you give them like a questionnaire. I think you referred or your, to the five dimension, altered state of consciousness scale would what, a name for a questionnaire. If there's ever a questionnaire, I want them to do it's that one.
[00:51:14] Um, but you know, they sit down and they, they go through this, um, experience and it is an experience like it, it is supposedly ineffable and, you know, mind altering and, you know, we can get onto this later. Do you know, this is the part I'm really actually interested in, but, um, they sit down and then they come out of this and, um, you talk to them and they fill out this questionnaire, um, you know, What I want to ask you is, you know, there's a beautiful line in Michael Pollan's book, where he says that, um, you take the ineffable and you then add structure to it and you ask people to put sentences to it in words.
[00:51:51] And I've spoken before about the kind of inefficiency of language at times, and language effects or, uh, or, you know, languages April [00:52:00] already. And it can affect our experience of things. Um, how do you separate anecdote and you know, like false positives, perhaps where people come into this being like, you know, they've read about it perhaps, or they are like, I've read about people coming into this that are perhaps religious.
[00:52:15] So their priors are, are, you know, Um, they were religious or they had a religious upbringing and they come out of it being more agnostic and spiritual, um, are more religious. They saw God or met God or what they say is met God. But how do you, how do you put words to that? You know, some people come out, they have, they were philosophers and they came out and all of a sudden they understand Hegel more or something, you know, that was previously, you know, theoretical to them.
[00:52:38] They all of a sudden feel in tune with it. How do you separate out the false positives and how do you like stop it being just anecdotal evidence? Are you like measuring something specific? I, a behavior change. I came into this smoking. I come out of it. I don't want to smoke.
[00:52:53] John: [00:52:53] Yeah, well, I suppose trials do have set intentions and set goals.
[00:52:58] People within the [00:53:00] trials have said touch, as he said, gold, depending on what they're looking at. Um, you know, be it addiction overcoming addiction or drug resistant depression trying to enhance one's mood. But yeah, the realm of subjectivity is tremendously complex and inevitable quality is hard to deal with.
[00:53:20] Although there seems to be. A new language sort of developing and, and part of this language is sort of related to some of the questionnaires. So it can be at least one can attempt to quantify it. And for example, one of the terms, which is a great term is oceanic boundlessness and that's positive ego dissolution.
[00:53:47] So one of the kind of theories is one of the leading theories. And as a primary thing is that this experience transiently alters one's self [00:54:00] processing system. And if one transit alters one self processing system that can potentially lead to greater experiences of connection, To the environment and to other people in the environment.
[00:54:18] So they get a different sort of perspective on things you've heard. Other people describe it as a, as a zoomed out approach, a wider perspective, a broader range of emotions and thoughts, but this concept of positive and negative ego dissolution seems to be key. And it hasn't been precisely worked out if the secondary results in terms of the social processing is downstream of, of that.
[00:54:48] But don't forget all this is happening in the, everything happens in the context of an emotional backdrop as well. So, so there's quite a few things going on with it across self social, uh, [00:55:00] perceptual sensory systems.
[00:55:04] Chris: [00:55:04] I think that's
[00:55:05] Noel: [00:55:05] sorry, John, again, it's myself, but it's. Just coming from a therapeutic firm from a therapist kind of point of view.
[00:55:12] That's, that's one of the big parts that I would see about that this, the possibility of this can give is, as I mentioned before, there's other techniques and there's other ways that, you know, and it's a great, it's a bridge thing to
[00:55:26] Chris: [00:55:26] see
[00:55:29] Noel: [00:55:29] if it's a brilliant thing to do. I see in the therapy room, when you help a person get to that place where they're able to strip, strip back and just fully be themselves.
[00:55:37] Because I often talk about quality connection with other people and they just find this absolute love, because I suppose I would see in some ways that if they find that low for themselves and then they're just able to, so therefore the way I kind of describe it, um, is that they, they break away those old.
[00:55:54] Habits, those old behaviors, those old things that were just holding them back. And that's what I suppose I'm really most excited [00:56:00] about was because there was all the results. And I know we've touched on this earlier with this. There are people that would find this really difficult, um, to do that. So it's great to hear you.
[00:56:10] You talk about the same thing in say in the more scientific side. So it's great to see that the kind of the psychotherapy side of things coming together and the psychic psychiatry and the medical side of things coming together and wanting that same, um, that same goal of, of, and at that same event, so that clients are able to strip back, strip away that ego strip away all the things that hold them back.
[00:56:32] And I'm not even going to try to the oceanic, um, th th uh, ex um, definition or word that you was there a moment ago that they're able to get that, um, that, that they've worked for years with a therapist, and this can sometimes happen sometimes how this can often happen that. They just can't, you know, they can't just release that things.
[00:56:52] So it's, it's a fantastic thing. It's a really exciting thing for them to finally have a bit of hope there that maybe it was, but it had [00:57:00] kind of waned. So it is, it's a fantastic thing to see that there's possibility there, that they can get that freedom and really connect with other people again, not just themselves, but then other people, again, because that the benefits of that are absolutely just incur.
[00:57:14] Just incredible for people.
[00:57:18] John: [00:57:18] Yeah. Yeah. And this, this concept of connection has been born out by qualitative follow-up studies. So this movement or transition from disconnection to connection is a, is a common theme and other themes which emerge this sort of concept of emotional or experiential avoidance into acceptance and a quote, max Wolf learning to let go sort of a psychological phenomena.
[00:57:48] And then I guess other level it could be, as we touched on before attenuation of the negative self referential. And thoughts in [00:58:00] terms of ruminations or sort of a decrease in, in, in, in rumination. And as we touched on before alteration in, in mood, and we know that siliciden and the other psychedelics alter and make the reactivity.
[00:58:14] So alter how your make Dima, which is your emotional salience detector in your brain, part of your limbic system, how that reacts to, uh, emotional faces and in healthy controls, at least it's pretty consistent in that the suicide and the other psychedelics decrease the, make their reactivity to, uh, fearful and sad faces.
[00:58:38] Uh, whereas the depression, there was a slight change in that it was an increase. So that all has to be looked at with larger, larger studies. But again, back to your, your, your original point, isn't it fantastic that. We're finally getting to a point of synergy between psychology and psychiatry [00:59:00] that we could work.
[00:59:01] We're working to the same purposes to try to help people. Uh, and then we can move beyond this nonsense divisions of talk versus molecule. I mean, way beyond that, as I think
[00:59:14] Chris: [00:59:14] you'll agree. Yeah. When it's more complicated, like I, you know, when you fill out the questionnaire that we do before the show, you mentioned systematic approaches.
[00:59:22] And I think people do have this dualistic grudge of, Oh, the mind versus the body. And we keep harping on about this, uh, uh, on the shoulder. Like I just it's so wrong. Um, even the term mental health I think is, is an incorrect, um, attribution that we we've pathologized something that we look at it from, um, you know, the perspective of preventative measures, but this is all about mindfulness and it's about, um, being aware of that.
[00:59:53] Um, everything is connected in your body and like what, what these psychedelic studies are starting to prove that there's more of a [01:00:00] connection. I think we can talk about conscious and stuff. This is like a complete black hole that we can go down and spend a few hours there, but this is about the expansion of consciousness, et cetera.
[01:00:08] And there's something that I got interested in from, from, um, from meditation was this idea of, um, down-regulating immigrant and the default mode network and, or nor Northern I speak about this all the time. I think, uh, I've seen the default mode network being mentioned in, um, some of the studies and what effectively happens.
[01:00:29] So I think the default mode occurs quite as quite a new, um, a new phenomenon if it's based when there has been there since humans existed, but it's something new in the scientific community is this idea of the default mode network and what can happen with meditation and, you know, types of, um, psychedelic therapy.
[01:00:46] Can you perhaps explain what that is? And walk, walk kind of happens.
[01:00:51] John: [01:00:51] Yeah. So I suppose the default mode network has been linked to numerous different psychological [01:01:00] experiences. One of which is this sort of self referential processing. And then I suppose studies have been drawn a link, uh, to sort of ego.
[01:01:12] And some people don't like the term ego because it reduces scientific terminology. If you like, it's not as precise as one would hope, but carts Harrison and Imperial again, uh, showed another groups in healthy controls that psilocybin decreases the default mode network. So if you like T turns a down, uh, and then the sort of came up with this or the reset mechanism, because again, similar to what I mentioned about the amigdala.
[01:01:48] They actually in depression found a sort of one day after some assignment, an increase in default mode network, hence the, the reset. So again, it has to be [01:02:00] looked at in larger studies and it also seems that it's not going to be that simple. It's not just the default mode network, that there are other networks going on as well.
[01:02:15] And there's global changes in connectivity. I mean, even card Harris and his group have recently put out a study and LSD showing that very thing that it's perhaps even the default boat, that may be an over-simplification, but again, it still needs to be looked at. And what I think would be fascinating would be to see if the default mode network in conjunction with the other, other networks global.
[01:02:44] Brain connectivity could be a trans diagnostic neuro-biological marker that you could put across various different categorical diagnosis in psychiatry and psychology and holding on that and see if that's a, you know, a [01:03:00] common mechanism amongst, I guess the other mechanisms, some of which we've we've mentioned.
[01:03:05] And that would be a very interesting study to look at.
[01:03:10] Chris: [01:03:10] Yeah. That word transit diagnostic is very important. I think, you know, cause it, it speaks to the idea of this kind of holistic view of the mind. You know, I read this guy under Sherman's book that the new Nadiem demon and he referred to like depression, anxiety as almost like fraternal twins.
[01:03:24] Um, you can't separate them and therefore, like why would you give someone a drug? This is why some of the answers are always seem to, um, have positive implications on people's underlying trait, anxiety, as well as perhaps their depression. But now we're onto the part that I'm more excited about. I, you know, I don't think people notice about me and my close friends, but I'm a bit of a spiritual dude at heritage.
[01:03:45] You know, I'm, I'm the kind of guy I go for walks. Sometimes I talk to the trees to see if I can feel them, but this is all calm a boat from, uh, uh, you know, meditation over over many years. I wasn't like this. If people knew me in college, didn't know I was just the biggest gym [01:04:00] rat, bro. Um, you could think of, you know, I spent my days eating chicken breast and doing deadlifts and I wasn't interested in this, but I have found this sense of connection, which is why I'm so excited about perhaps, um, you know, going to somewhere like the Netherlands to a retreat or whatever to do is if I find that there's conclusive evidence enough that this is worthwhile.
[01:04:18] Um, and th I liked that you mentioned that idea of the scientific community. Doesn't really like that, the kind of, um, nebulous nature of the word ego, um, you know, it's more amorphous than they're perhaps used to. Um, you know, one thing I love about science is that, you know, in effect it's, it's like a working document.
[01:04:38] We call it an work. It's like something that's constantly being layered and changed. And based on the evidence, you know, it has to be repeatable and it has to be falsifiable and all these things are super important. The scientific method is, is one of the greatest inventions of, um, of homosapiens. Um, but.
[01:04:56] Th this part of like, you know, personal meaning and [01:05:00] spiritual significance and the idea of, of consciousness. And it seems to like have crept into the research and like when people come out of these experiences, um, you know, you're, you're categorizing and codifying everything they're saying, but this mystical element of it is coming off.
[01:05:15] How do you find dealing with that from, from your scientist based? So you're looking at this it's either quantifiable or qualitatively measurable. How does it feel to be talking to people about perhaps seeing God are, um, you know, meeting their maker or, uh, you know, like I I've heard lots of, even that idea of, um, oceanic, um, uh, uh, boundlessness.
[01:05:40] I mean, I want a bit of that, you know, give me some oceanic bonuses any day of the week and I'll show up. What, how, how, how, how does it feel as a scientist to be looking at it from this perspective?
[01:05:52] John: [01:05:52] Yeah, couple of things there, I suppose the original Griffin study and more recently, Alan Davis study, I mean, people are, [01:06:00] are, are rating. This experience, you know, is amongst the top five of the most meaningful experiences that they've had. And you're looking at 60 to 70%, uh, agreement rates for that. And then a recent study looking at U S veterans was even up as high as 85, 5%.
[01:06:19] And, um, so, so, so that mystical experience, another, another vague term. And I suppose again, one. Those one best to try to get the right sets of questionnaires to, to, to sort of break that experience down in terms of how I personally deal with it. There was people want to conceptualize it as a, as a God or a creator.
[01:06:45] Well far be it from me to say otherwise. And we roll with that. Of course, as long as it's beneficial for them therapeutically. Um, my take on it is that this, I mean, [01:07:00] consciousness is just so amazing in and of itself. Uh, it might be linked to how information feels when it's being processed in certain complex ways.
[01:07:14] And that you're altering that. And that for me is. And that it's you, if there is a, you, that's the amazing thing about it. And, and I guess the, the patterns of connectivity within that and how that relates to patterns of connectivity within other people in the wider environment, you know, that is probably getting close to meaning as I would conceptualize it at this point.
[01:07:45] Chris: [01:07:45] Yeah. Like aspire, I dunno. I get giddy thinking about it. Um, like I talk about the Eagle all the time, but you know, perhaps people misinterpret what, I mean, I don't mean like egotistical as in like, you know, you think you're great. I'm talking about the Eagle is like, um, conceptually [01:08:00] this, um, phenomenon of the South or your interpretation of who you are.
[01:08:05] And if that is even a thing, the pronoun, ah, you know, what am I, is there an I, is there just duality? Like, you know, we use the word, do it as a murder, but in philosophy to do oddity or dualism is like, um, Me I'm the world. Okay. There's a separation between, uh, the subject I versus, you know, the objective environment around me.
[01:08:25] Um, and I, I often get a sense with meditation if I can go deep enough that, that, that. That boundary seems to slightly dissipate. Um, and I'm very keen and, and this is why I'm perhaps so excited about this is that if you know, there's correlations between that and, and, um, you know, uh, the experience on some of these psychedelics, then Jesus, I, I don't know, you know, what, uh, possibly, um, if people are in for our people who are experiencing it could be, uh, you know, like, I love that you mentioned that [01:09:00] the people have counted.
[01:09:01] This is one of the most positive experiences in their lives, a large cohort of people that have gone through these trials and say, this is the most positive thing that has ever happened to me. I mean, ingesting something, they've picked a fun guy, uh, that they've picked up. I know it's synthetic when you guys give him pills or whatever, but, you know, ingesting a phone, most positive experience that they have ever had.
[01:09:20] I mean, you know, we could like con consciousness for me is, um, it blows my mind and it, it, it, it really blows my mind that, you know, the science hasn't quite. Caught up to it. There's still a lot of, um, you know, language being used, not at all scientific, you know, my favorite consciousness theory is that it perhaps like pervades the universe, like, uh, you know, you know, uh, physics have electromagnetism and all this kind of stuff, you know, is consciousness something that, uh, we are just part of like this, this phenomenon that, that has been there since, you know, the big bang, um, our, our, is it some sort of subject object relation, you know, like we can go [01:10:00] down a rabbit hole there.
[01:10:01] Um, but I really want to ask you about, did you have you read the paper by Cairo Tyrus about, uh, the entropic brain? Because this is my main takeaway when I read, um, how to change your mind is in the paper. They effectively, um, espouse this idea that okay. Okay. So I'll try and explain this to this. I can remember here people listening.
[01:10:23] I'm not a fucking scientist. I'm just the village idiot trying to figure things out. So they basically, uh, posited that, um, your brain, you know, entropy is basically in, in physics or systems theory is when something becomes disordered our expands. So when you heat up the gas, it expands or you, you open the cop, it expands out of the space in which it was in.
[01:10:47] And they basically say that, um, you know, uh, people with, uh, depression, et cetera, or other, uh, psychologic, psychological disorders or illnesses have what's called an overall organized brain. So [01:11:00] they suffer from a low entropy environment in, in the mind, meaning that I have built up these pathways or psychological, um, uh, you know, pathways and ways of looking at the world.
[01:11:12] And I begin to ruminate because, um, they become too strict, too concrete. I'm too concrete in a way. I think there's not enough flexibility in how my mind works. I can't adapt to the world and the way other people have kind of, which affects my optimism, et cetera, and Cairo tires, um, uh, who he essentially said that.
[01:11:34] Um, when you take these drugs, stay, provide this high entropy environment. Um, you know, again, it's back to that shaking of the snow globe and it, it then brings it back afterwards. You know, perhaps this is why there's increase in default mode network activity that they after, cause you're creating these new pathways or whatever.
[01:11:53] Um, but th did you, did you come across that? Um, because I thought it was like, yeah,
[01:11:59] John: [01:11:59] they [01:12:00] have a fascinating. Yeah, yeah. The edge, you know, a Hans entropy and they have a fascinating review paper and I highly recommended he wrote it with Karl Friston and it's relaxed beliefs under psychedelics or Reba for short and really.
[01:12:19] Well, it's back to the prior stuff that psychedelic state could sort of attenuate or transiently the ones priors. And this might give one more access to information flow from limbic systems. So you would have a sort of a greater access to that in a time and emergent fashion. And that's of course, linked to greater entropy and linked to sort of, you know, as we talked about before the alterations in global brain connectivity, it's all linked and it's perhaps linked and can map onto the subjective concept of enhanced psychological flexibility, which [01:13:00] is also linked to enhanced openness, which can potentially happen after the psychedelic experience.
[01:13:06] So it's kind of fusing again, all those, those levels, uh, which again is quite interesting. And, uh, I do also like the idea you mentioned panpsychism yeah. Tapping into that. I wouldn't be so into that myself because we don't really have the data to go there. Uh, I hit the bore the lines of a, sort of a more basic, I guess, type of materialist or something like that.
[01:13:40] But I do like the idea just like psychology and psychiatry coming together that we could be potentially Woodward hope provide. We don't get too upset about panpsychism versus a, I don't know, global workspace theory that that could then unite us, you know, get us beyond some of the other divisions. Right.
[01:13:59] But [01:14:00] again, from a scientific point of view is where I want to, um, to, to, to, to, to, to, to go to. And I'm glad you said that the science is the only paradigm that. You know, continuously checks itself and it's, it does get things wrong at different levels, but then it has the humility to go back and say, okay, we were wrong at ducks.
[01:14:20] And, and to tweak it, uh, hopefully, you know, for, for the betterment of, of all of us. So other paradigms don't do that.
[01:14:31] Chris: [01:14:31] Absolutely. I like that pencil. It gives me a funny, I'm a little bit more tighter electric Kool-Aid and you're, you're allowed to be, so, you know, I'm going to stick with bank tight because consciousness is expansion.
[01:14:42] You can stick with your quite deployables. Uh, but I, I really want to ask you now about the future. So where's this going, John? You know, like when am I going to be able to go to my pharmacist and say, I want, you know, a healthy five Meg or, [01:15:00] you know, a synthesized form of psilocybin please? Um, or I, I, I'm going to some sort of therapist, like no, and no is bringing me through like a Sharman and putting on masks on me and playing like the Johns Hopkins playlist.
[01:15:14] Is this going that direction? Are we, are we, you know, will I be able to do this legally? I won't have to illicitly talk about this, you know? Um, is it going to get there and hopefully
[01:15:24] John: [01:15:24] it won't be asking for those, you know, mega doses that we referred to earlier, but I suppose the one thing is going to be like, it's probably going to be linked with some sort of a psychotherapeutic process now how all this is going to end up.
[01:15:40] I don't think anyone knows. You could see there, like it's now a huge multi-billion dollar sort of enterprise and one. Us to appreciate the complexities of that and that it's exceptionally expensive to roll [01:16:00] something out, uh, in terms of a trial. So the next phase, I guess, after phase two would be phase three and then that would then get, potentially get a license.
[01:16:11] I know again, with the, probably be tied to, you know, the set and setting and getting that particularly, um, get that right. You know, uh, so I'm not sure about going into a pharmacy by yourself and getting it would, would, would be the way forward, but in the context of, of all sort of these, I guess, you know, corporations and whatnot, I would be very keen that if.
[01:16:38] There is a clear therapeutic effect that it would be available to public patients. That wouldn't just be the remiss of wealthy people or people with various types of insurance. And I'd be quite passionate about that. Uh, something that would concern me to a [01:17:00] degree and I'm sure a lot of people would potentially share those concerns.
[01:17:05] Now, one has to say like has to be real as well. I mean, is there going to have to be a period whereby sufficient data has to be collected in, in a, in a sort of non public health system sense and then go to the HSC and say, look, let's roll this out. And I would like to drive that on if I could, depending on the data.
[01:17:30] Chris: [01:17:30] Yeah. And what it all comes down to the data, but you know what I mean, dirty capitalist at the end of the day, John. So, um, I know that gets a time, gets his hand on this stuff. Yeah. Perhaps, you know, this may be my worry. Yeah. You know, I can come at it from, you know, I'm not in scientific community and I can look at a little more spiritually and I can look at its history over a millennia.
[01:17:52] You mentioned five and a half thousand years there. And I I'm sure are going to, um, find, um, uh, more evidence, [01:18:00] um, you know, Marissa SKU's book, the one that, the mortality key, like, you know, that kind of stuff blows my mind that I like thinking about it that way. And I like it a bit, a bit. Um, you know, Alice actually on it and door's perception, but I'm a little bit worried that.
[01:18:14] I want this to be a success. You know, if, if it remained all the, the, the studies, uh, the results remain positive, I want us to be accessed and that, you know, you thanked the participants earlier. So the, the kind of community scientist, I can't remember the term you used, but, you know, I want to thank them too, because, you know, hopefully someday, if, if they've gone through this and it is positive, then someone like me in their early mid twenties, who's, you know, really heavily dealing with depression can, um, experience this and perhaps, uh, you know, uh, rid themselves of this horrid disease, you know, it is a matter of mood and it's a spectrum and a continuum in it.
[01:18:53] It's very, very complicated, but, you know, Yeah, hopefully, uh, some stage of, [01:19:00] um, you know, humanity, we will have a place where people can go and, and therapy, which is something that I advocate for along with, um, you know, uh, psychedelic therapy and have these altering experiences and everyone can be connected and, you know, we all affect and love each other, um, at the end of the day, but I just know I've seen it happen and I'm looking at what's happening with Academy and, and, you know, pharma companies have this now and you can, you can get it in, in America, et cetera, but they haven't, um, called for therapy to go with it.
[01:19:29] So there has to be these repeated, like, we didn't mention this earlier, but I think some of the results coming back from suicide studies is that, um, it does diminish over time. It's not a kind of, uh, you take it once and you're done for life and there has to be top-ups. They think there's not enough evidence yet, I believe, but in that Academy there, they haven't advised for the therapy that goes with it.
[01:19:48] I am hoping that it does result in this holistic thing where people must talk through it. You know, set in setting, uh, take it and then, you know, get better because you know, all they [01:20:00] want from this whole thing is to help people get better. And for me to get better, to be honest with you, um, you know, I'd love for a situation where I can have a life altering experience and perhaps change all of the ways I perceive the world.
[01:20:11] Cause some of them are shit and, and sometimes I feel shit and I, you know, want to, uh, to take something. But my experience, um, you know, just to disclose is I have refused my entire life to take, um, The drugs. Uh, I just, I won't take us as horizon. That's my own personal, um, I have my own personal reasons for that.
[01:20:32] And, you know, I I've done my own research and I just feel like I don't want to do it. It's not for me. So this is why I'm looking at this as an alternative science, you know, as a plant medicine, but I'm a little bit worried that perhaps all of this, you know, this idea of the shamans and, and like, you can see the westernization and the intellectual nation of Iowasca even, you know, these people going in these retreats and going down and then like little industries forming and South America where people are [01:21:00] flying from fucking Dublin down to the Amazon rainforest to chew on some leaves and get sick for 12 hours.
[01:21:06] Um, you know, is that a good thing? I don't know. You know, at the end of the day, all we want is the best for people that what sometimes when capitalism gets his hand in things and I'm a capitalist at the end of the day, I've made it, um, it ruins it. You know, and I do worry that perhaps we might fucking ruin it, but I absolutely advocate for the science.
[01:21:25] Um, and I absolutely, um, uh, want your research to be continued. I hope so person, the government listens to this and says, I want the back, this guy did it. And, and, and float his research with, with money loads of it. So they can help the research and have more participants at home COVID goes away. So you can, uh, expedite this process, uh, because I'd love to take it.
[01:21:47] I don't want to do anything illicitly, but you know, like right now this is the reality. I can hop on a plane and go to the Netherlands. We're not, not right now affect COVID, but, you know, I can hop in a plane and go through the natural lands and go to a retreat. [01:22:00] And, um, you know, it can be provided for in a legal way, which I think, um, you know, the law is belief that somewhere you can go as legal and somewhere it's not legal.
[01:22:10] I just don't fucking understand that. Um, But people do it. Um, and it, it, it does happen, but we are approaching 90 minutes, John. And, uh, this is the part of the show, uh, that we refer to as the quick fire round. So before we do that, I just want to say, um, this has been amazing, you know, uh, I love talking about this stuff.
[01:22:35] Uh, we could talk about this stuff for days. Hopefully someday we can have this job over a point or two. Um, but this is the quickfire rounds. A little bit more fun. Um, it's designed so that I'll ask you 10 questions in a row. You get about five seconds or less to answer the question. So just say what ever comes to your head.
[01:22:53] You know, nothing really will throw you off. Uh, seven of the questions are always the same. Three are kind of spoke to you. [01:23:00] Let's say so. Are you ready?
[01:23:03] John: [01:23:03] Go for it. So beating
[01:23:06] Dan: [01:23:06] around the Bush
[01:23:09] John: [01:23:09] 10 questions. Come on five seconds on the clock. We already know hesitate. You only need
[01:23:14] Chris: [01:23:14] quick questions. Come on, pick up the bags. I'll go for question one. So your favorite book and psychedelics
[01:23:24] John: [01:23:24] Michael Pollan's science of psychedelics. Good
[01:23:29] Chris: [01:23:29] question too. If you could speak to one person on earth, if you could speak to one person on earth for an hour, who would it
[01:23:35] John: [01:23:35] be?
[01:23:36] Oh, easy. Bernie Sanders.
[01:23:40] Dan: [01:23:40] Okay.
[01:23:41] Chris: [01:23:41] Question three. What's the most ridiculous thing anyone has ever said to you about your research?
[01:23:53] John: [01:23:53] Goodness, I don't know about that one.
[01:23:56] Chris: [01:23:56] Five seconds is definitely up.
[01:23:58] John: [01:23:58] Oh yeah.
[01:24:06] [01:24:00] Chris: [01:24:06] She's in the backyard or something.
[01:24:09] John: [01:24:09] We've offered that one. Yeah.
[01:24:13] Chris: [01:24:13] Okay. We can move on if you want. We can go back to that one quick question for name something weird or absurd that you love.
[01:24:23] John: [01:24:23] Well, you know, more weird and absurd than psychedelic science or, uh, let's see where the I I'm also, let's see. Uh, let's see.
[01:24:33] Uh, we didn't get a chance to talk about the whole microbiome and how that's linked to the brain development and mood. So that's, that's, that's another episode and how the microbiome links in with the psychedelic. So I guess that's kind of where to look at that silicide biome.
[01:24:55] Chris: [01:24:55] Question five, name something you couldn't live without
[01:25:04] [01:25:00] John: [01:25:04] and blueberries and raspberries,
[01:25:08] Chris: [01:25:08] question six. If you were last person on earth, what would you still do?
[01:25:16] John: [01:25:16] I would still try to learn new stuff, I suppose trying to think and try to learn new stuff. Yeah.
[01:25:26] Chris: [01:25:26] Question seven. If you could broadcast a message to everyone on earth, what would it be?
[01:25:34] John: [01:25:34] The message would be that we are more similar than different and that we could park a lot of what we think to be entrenched completely true and get beyond us into maybe a place of, of, um, overall greater.
[01:25:54] Unity. I think that would probably be the overall message.
[01:25:59] Chris: [01:25:59] Wow. What an answer? [01:26:00] Um, okay. Question eight. What advice should young people ignore
[01:26:08] John: [01:26:08] people? Should, I guess people should be very careful who they listen to, uh, that that's for sure. Uh, what's your day, you know, or,
[01:26:23] um, most celebrities,
[01:26:31] Chris: [01:26:31] that's it. That's it. That's your
[01:26:32] Dan: [01:26:32] answer?
[01:26:36] Chris: [01:26:36] Question nine, if you feel overwhelmed, what do you instinctively do?
[01:26:42] John: [01:26:42] If you feel over I exercise, exercise is what I do and what. You should do. Yeah.
[01:26:52] Chris: [01:26:52] Yeah. It's a common answer. It's a common answer. Last question. Finish the sentence. At the end of the day, it all [01:27:00] comes down to
[01:27:02] John: [01:27:02] consciousness, its contents and the overlap with other people and their consciousness.
[01:27:09] It's a sort of trying to make a better go of things and the struggles that we all go through.
[01:27:20] Chris: [01:27:20] God, that's just the most scientific answer we've had. Yeah. But well done. Uh, this has been an experience. This is the first of the episodes. Yeah. We've had that, um, are really kind of, um, a learning experience, you know, where the students you're the teacher and hopefully we can be a proxy for people listening.
[01:27:39] Um, this is a little bit taboo, you know, um, you know, the science is catching up with what people have been doing for millennia. Um, and it's very, very important that people enter discourse about these kinds of things. You know, don't just sit there and go, Oh, it's just a drug, you know, it's a legal, listen.
[01:27:59] If it's legal in [01:28:00] another country, it's illegal here. What does that say? You know, it's, it's odd and I find it difficult to fathom. Um, but it's very important and it's important that people. Understand that there are potentially going to be alternatives to the status quo. Um, if there are people doing good work out there, like John and Franco keen and, and their team and the people that are participating in these studies before I let you go, John, um, we normally do a pug, uh, I doubt you're going to plug your Instagram or anything like that.
[01:28:32] Uh, do you want to maybe talk about our, our plug COMPAS or are your research, are you looking for participants? You know, how can people find you?
[01:28:42] John: [01:28:42] Yeah, sure. Um, there's an email psilocybin@crp.healthcare. And people can email us in and, and Annie we'll be in touch and we'll send out a self report questionnaire.
[01:28:55] And I should just say that, uh, yeah, the, as we discussed before the inclusion [01:29:00] exclusion or a rather restrictive, so like try not to be too disappointed, like the rules are so to speak are set, but hopefully we can expand out into other studies and other conditions into the future. And what we hope to do that.
[01:29:15] Chris: [01:29:15] Yeah. We'll put all of this in the show notes, we do an extensive set of show notes. So anything that we've referred to books studies, anything that we've talked about in the show will be linked to there, including that email and, uh, ways to perhaps contact, um, John and his team. But, um, this has been the one thing she podcast with John Kelly.
[01:29:36] Thank you very much over now. We're done.
[01:29:53] Dan: [01:29:53] recap time. Lotta a lot has been said, uh, lost them to go over and no, what were your
[01:30:00] [01:29:59] Chris: [01:29:59] takeaways?
[01:30:01] Noel: [01:30:01] Big one for me is two points that I'm looking at that I think the biggest one of this, um, of you using the use of psychedelics, um, as, as a tool in psychotherapy or to, to help with clients is the ability to reset what we talked about a little bit, the DMN, the DM, and the default mode network or the, uh, and the amygdala.
[01:30:28] Um, the ability of the possibility that you can reset that. And then by doing that, stripping yourself of those preconceived, that those old rules that you've really rigidly lived your life. Like, you know, like I said, as a 13 year old, I can't do this. So I believe that then for the rest of my life and the possibility that someone can get to a place at whatever age they are later on in life and shed themselves of that is fantastic because some of these are unbelievably hard to shift are next to [01:31:00] impossible.
[01:31:00] And then simply in some cases, people feel they're just impossible to shift sort of the possibility that that could be something on the cards. And very realistically on the cards is, is great. The other one is, and I know we touched on this in the podcast itself, but me personally and professionally, I'm really excited for people like John.
[01:31:20] Personally, uh, his personality and his approach and his tinking to bring people in. And I think he really, some them, some of the more, well, when he answered question, I think it was seven. And question 10 on and the quickfire round of just that it's that whole thing about inclusive inclusivity and connect them with people.
[01:31:40] Um, yeah, it really kind of drew me more towards him, which therefore I hope we'll do the same for listeners, but then also by doing that, if you like the person, then you're more likely to listen to what they're talking about. I think that that's, um, that's, that's just going to be really good for our, for, for everyone really
[01:31:58] Dan: [01:31:58] nice.
[01:31:59] Chris: [01:31:59] What have you guys, [01:32:00] uh, I think I was taken aback with John himself, you know, um, I think knowing. That people like him are devoting their careers to something as nascent as this. And, you know, so if you're not as perhaps has previously been frowned upon and is now going through this Renaissance gives me a lot of confidence.
[01:32:20] Um, you know, there are people like me in the world who are looking at this eagerly awaiting, uh, conclusions, uh, you know, because we don't want to illicitly do this. And if, if, if the conclusions don't come fast enough, then people like me might be forced to, um, you know, move on with their lives. And I might go to the Netherlands and do one of these retreats.
[01:32:39] You know, I'm reminded of this, this, um, this case that was taken out against the state in America for cannabis. Uh, people were taking it for glaucoma, which, you know, affects blindness. And, um, they won the case because, um, the, it was seeing that taking the cannabis for glaucoma, um, [01:33:00] was, uh, medically necessary.
[01:33:03] No, the, I think the, the famous line, um, from the trial was that, um, would you, uh, break the law to save your sight? And the judge concluded? Yes. You know what? I break the law in Ireland to a safe, uh, my mental health. I don't know. I don't want to fucking break the law, you know? Um, and I don't want to openly admit the breaking law either, but I'd probably go to the Netherlands.
[01:33:24] You know, I'd probably do something like this because the evidence is positive, but it's not positive enough. I want to reiterate this yet for me to say yes, I will. I will do this. I'm going to wait to see your conclusions and see what John and compass and people in maps in America, people like Rick Doblin, et cetera, what they come up with.
[01:33:41] You know, I don't want to get too excited. They want to be too exuberant about this and just go ingest a bunch of more shoes because it's not the type of person I am. I'd like to see what is in front of me, you know, compliment all conclusion, um, and form my own opinions. I think the next thing that I would take from it is, again, this idea [01:34:00] of set and setting and how part it is, how important your priors are and your state of mind.
[01:34:04] Um, you know, a lot of the research and, and the body of work around it is that, uh, recreationally these things are, you know, not conducive to a good experience, 100% of the time. I'm sure there are many people listening that are saying, what the fuck you talking about, Chris? We had a great time out in the forest there at one time.
[01:34:22] Uh, but yeah. You know, that's not the way science works. They tried to look at this rigorously and see if there are any issues with it so that, you know, there aren't any, um, you know, uh, problems down the line. They look at this through a continuum and they look at this over a long period of time and see if there are any ramifications down the line.
[01:34:41] So it is positive, but also look at the potential downsides. You know, there, there are a few at the moment I thought it was, it was profound to hear that the toxicology of this is, um, very high. The L you know, the LD 50, I think is what it's called. Uh, the lethal dose is extremely high and it's not [01:35:00] addictive.
[01:35:01] Um, but that doesn't mean so much to go out and pick my shoes and ingest, you know, you know, three or four grams, uh, just because they feel like, I think, you know, people should take the time to understand these things because they're powerful, but they can, you can have negative. Consequences. So again, I think it's this idea of set and setting me in the right frame of mind and getting the right setting and doing it the right way.
[01:35:22] You know, I don't think these are the types of things that should be taken for falling. It's more for, uh, learning, uh, but you know, people taking fun, fucking, you know, whatever. So that, that's, I think the two takeaways for me, and I'm excited to maybe talk to John again when, when he forms conclusions on this.
[01:35:41] Dan: [01:35:41] Hmm. I really wanted to know lots on that playlist.
[01:35:45] Chris: [01:35:45] I have it actually, I'll give it to you. You can donate it on Spotify. Oh yeah. Okay. Amazing. When working there, there's like really low kind of, um, vLab tunes, you know, low-fi music.
[01:36:01] [01:36:00] Noel: [01:36:01] I'd have to link it in the show notes afterwards forever.
[01:36:04] Dan: [01:36:04] Sure. Yeah, we should.
[01:36:05] Okay. All right. Thanks everyone for listening. Again. This has been episode six with Dr. John Kelly. Peace out. Bye. Bye
[01:36:22] as always everybody. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. We really hope you enjoyed it, and you really did enjoy it. You can leave us a review on Apple podcasts. If that's your thing, we would really appreciate it. It helps us out a lot. Also, you can learn more about us and what we do by checking out www.onedmcpodcast.com.
[01:36:37] If you want to follow us on social media, we are at one DMC on all social media platforms. It's a good time over there. We promise and you know, hope you had a good time. Hope you have a great week. I will see you in the next one.
